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#1
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In article ,
Mary Shafer wrote: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:46:54 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: Funny, I keep finding quite large ones. Like the Predator, the Darkstar, the Global Hawk, or one of several Russian designs that are basically reworked large cruise missiles or former target drones. Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Certainly big enough to hit with cannon fire. Maybe you saw a sub-scale prototype? -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
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Chad Irby wrote:
In article , Mary Shafer wrote: Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Sure, the span is twice that of a T-37. But Darkstar was only 15 feet long, which is quite short for a plane of its span, and about half the length of a Tweet. Between those two dimensions, I could certainly understand describing it as "T-37-class." -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#3
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In article et,
"Thomas Schoene" wrote: Chad Irby wrote: In article , Mary Shafer wrote: Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Sure, the span is twice that of a T-37. But Darkstar was only 15 feet long, which is quite short for a plane of its span, and about half the length of a Tweet. Between those two dimensions, I could certainly understand describing it as "T-37-class." But that certainly does *not* make it too small to shoot down with aerial guns, or everyone would be using T-37s as "gunproof planes." -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#4
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:02:23 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
In article et, "Thomas Schoene" wrote: Chad Irby wrote: In article , Mary Shafer wrote: Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Sure, the span is twice that of a T-37. But Darkstar was only 15 feet long, which is quite short for a plane of its span, and about half the length of a Tweet. Between those two dimensions, I could certainly understand describing it as "T-37-class." But that certainly does *not* make it too small to shoot down with aerial guns, or everyone would be using T-37s as "gunproof planes." First you have to find it, though. You can't get a guns kill on an airplane you can't find in the sky. Guns kills are close-up kills. The T-37 isn't a low-observables airplane and DarkSpot most certainly was. Actually, it looked like a cross between the B-2 and the U-2; the project team got tired of hearing it called the UB-2 fairly quickly. The Tweet shows up on radar just fine; DarkSpot didn't. You knew, didn't you, that DarkSpot flew out of Dryden? It was housed in the building I worked in and it spent a fair amount of time out on the ramp. I saw it fairly often. Mary -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer |
#5
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In article ,
Mary Shafer wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:02:23 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: But that certainly does *not* make it too small to shoot down with aerial guns, or everyone would be using T-37s as "gunproof planes." First you have to find it, though. You can't get a guns kill on an airplane you can't find in the sky. Guns kills are close-up kills. Since the whole point of this thread was on missiles versus guns, how in the heck does that help the "missiles only" camp? If you can't find the thing with radar or with your eyes, how are you going to shoot it with a missile? If it's findable with either, then shooting it with a cannon is just gunnery practice... and with that nice big wingspan and slow airspeed, it's going to be easy as hell to shoot. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#6
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:06:28 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
In article , Mary Shafer wrote: First you have to find it, though. You can't get a guns kill on an airplane you can't find in the sky. Guns kills are close-up kills. Since the whole point of this thread was on missiles versus guns, how in the heck does that help the "missiles only" camp? If you can't find the thing with radar or with your eyes, how are you going to shoot it with a missile? That's the point I was making. Little, LO aircraft are maybe not the best example to use in such a comparison. Mary -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer |
#7
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 03:22:08 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
In article , Mary Shafer wrote: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:46:54 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: Funny, I keep finding quite large ones. Like the Predator, the Darkstar, the Global Hawk, or one of several Russian designs that are basically reworked large cruise missiles or former target drones. Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Certainly big enough to hit with cannon fire. You wouldn't be comparing it to the F-22 if you'd ever seen it. DarkSpot was really short and thin. Gliders have wing spans bigger than the F-22, too, but no one really compares them. Actually, the DarkStar-glider comparison isn't a bad one, now that I think about it. About the same volume and bulk. Same kind of materials for the airframe, too. Of course you can hit it with cannon fire. You can hit a cruise missile with cannon fire, too. You just have to work at it. I am reminded of the story about the time an ALCM escaped control at EDW. It went into some sort of holding pattern and AFFTC whistled up some armed F-4s from George. They came over and chased it around the sky, as it flew a predictable path without any sort of evasive maneuvering, for about a half an hour. They took a fair number of shots against it and missed it every time. The ALCM finally ran out of fuel and fell out of the sky. This may or may not be true, and accuracy was probably sacrificed for laughs by the third time someone told it, but it was widely accepted at EDW as being a reasonable representation of the events. Maybe you saw a sub-scale prototype? Nope. Mary -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer |
#8
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In article ,
Mary Shafer wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 03:22:08 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: In article , Mary Shafer wrote: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:46:54 GMT, Chad Irby wrote: Funny, I keep finding quite large ones. Like the Predator, the Darkstar, the Global Hawk, or one of several Russian designs that are basically reworked large cruise missiles or former target drones. Darkstar wasn't that big. I used to see it out on the ramp all the time. It was definitely is T-37 size class at the most. That's pretty small. http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/darkstar.htm The Darkstar has a 69 foot wingspan, about twice that of the T-37, and about 50 percent wider than the F-22. I consider that big. Certainly big enough to hit with cannon fire. You wouldn't be comparing it to the F-22 if you'd ever seen it. Actually, I have, and it's still really obviously big enough to shoot down with a gun. Of course you can hit it with cannon fire. You can hit a cruise missile with cannon fire, too. You just have to work at it. In visual size, the DarkStar (and most of the other "big" UAVs) are several times the size of a cruise missile, not to mention one-quarter the speed. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
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