A Google Groups alternative to rec.aviation.piloting?

On Aug 15, 5:24*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
buttman wrote:
On Aug 15, 4:53 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Thank you for the opportunity to present this again. I will continue
doing this every time you post mentioning my name.
Thank you

--
Dudley Henriques

You're doing it again! You're just illustrating my point for me.

This thread is not about me, its not about you, its not about pulling
the fuel valve on takeoff. Its about how certain people's egos degrade
discussion on this forum by bringing personalities into the picture.
Your sole argument here is "this guy made a lot of dumb posts in the
past, don't listen to anything he says, because by definition he is
wrong" by bringing up completely unrelated posts I made a year ago.

Instead of arguing against the argument, you rather argue against the
person. And it's not just you, many others are guilty too.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. In your case, it IS the person, NOT
the present subject.
You have used my name once more in a post in this thread to "make" your
"point". THAT is personal. I have responded to you making it perfectly
clear to anyone (who for whatever reason evades me) might be even
remotely interested in WHY you insist on using my name in this manner.
I say again and will continue to say that you represent everything I
have spent a lifetime in aviation attempting to correct.
Referencing that and nothing else, I again suggest that potential
students read the following thread that you began posted as a CFI and
make up their own minds about the why's of this discussion we're having.


Well if you were deeply offended by me using your name in my post,
then I am truly sorry. I didn't do it to insult you. I thought I made
it clear what the point I was trying to make was. If I could edit
usenet posts, I'd go back and change it to someone else's name.


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...wse_thread/thr...

--
Dudey Henriques

Also, just to put this out there, Dudley has, for months claimed me to
be "the worst CFI I've ever seen", "the type of person I've spent a
lifetime to try to correct", etc. But he has never elaborated on this,
ever. He just repeats these weasel phrases over and over again. If he
claims to be such an expert on CFI attitudes and aviation safety, then
why doesn't he make the case without resorting to smokescreen tactics
and weasel words? This is another example of people using their
sigfiles and reputation to do the arguing for them, which is exactly
what this group needs less of.

buttman wrote in
:

On Aug 15, 5:24*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
buttman wrote:
On Aug 15, 4:53 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Thank you for the opportunity to present this again. I will
continue doing this every time you post mentioning my name.
Thank you

--
Dudley Henriques

You're doing it again! You're just illustrating my point for me.

This thread is not about me, its not about you, its not about
pulling the fuel valve on takeoff. Its about how certain people's
egos degrade discussion on this forum by bringing personalities
into the picture. Your sole argument here is "this guy made a lot
of dumb posts in the past, don't listen to anything he says,
because by definition he is wrong" by bringing up completely
unrelated posts I made a year ago.

Instead of arguing against the argument, you rather argue against
the person. And it's not just you, many others are guilty too.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. In your case, it IS the person,
NOT the present subject.
You have used my name once more in a post in this thread to "make"
your "point". THAT is personal. I have responded to you making it
perfectly clear to anyone (who for whatever reason evades me) might
be even remotely interested in WHY you insist on using my name in
this manner. I say again and will continue to say that you represent
everything I have spent a lifetime in aviation attempting to correct.
Referencing that and nothing else, I again suggest that potential
students read the following thread that you began posted as a CFI and
make up their own minds about the why's of this discussion we're
having.


Well if you were deeply offended by me using your name in my post,
then I am truly sorry. I didn't do it to insult you. I thought I made
it clear what the point I was trying to make was. If I could edit
usenet posts, I'd go back and change it to someone else's name.



http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...wse_thread/thr
...

--
Dudey Henriques

Also, just to put this out there, Dudley has, for months claimed me to
be "the worst CFI I've ever seen", "the type of person I've spent a
lifetime to try to correct", etc. But he has never elaborated on this,
ever.

Yes, he has.

that makes you a liar!

Bertie

buttman wrote:
On Aug 15, 5:24 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
buttman wrote:
On Aug 15, 4:53 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Thank you for the opportunity to present this again. I will continue
doing this every time you post mentioning my name.
Thank you
--
Dudley Henriques
You're doing it again! You're just illustrating my point for me.
This thread is not about me, its not about you, its not about pulling
the fuel valve on takeoff. Its about how certain people's egos degrade
discussion on this forum by bringing personalities into the picture.
Your sole argument here is "this guy made a lot of dumb posts in the
past, don't listen to anything he says, because by definition he is
wrong" by bringing up completely unrelated posts I made a year ago.
Instead of arguing against the argument, you rather argue against the
person. And it's not just you, many others are guilty too.
Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. In your case, it IS the person, NOT
the present subject.
You have used my name once more in a post in this thread to "make" your
"point". THAT is personal. I have responded to you making it perfectly
clear to anyone (who for whatever reason evades me) might be even
remotely interested in WHY you insist on using my name in this manner.
I say again and will continue to say that you represent everything I
have spent a lifetime in aviation attempting to correct.
Referencing that and nothing else, I again suggest that potential
students read the following thread that you began posted as a CFI and
make up their own minds about the why's of this discussion we're having.


Well if you were deeply offended by me using your name in my post,
then I am truly sorry. I didn't do it to insult you. I thought I made
it clear what the point I was trying to make was. If I could edit
usenet posts, I'd go back and change it to someone else's name.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...wse_thread/thr...
--
Dudey Henriques

Also, just to put this out there, Dudley has, for months claimed me to
be "the worst CFI I've ever seen", "the type of person I've spent a
lifetime to try to correct", etc. But he has never elaborated on this,
ever. He just repeats these weasel phrases over and over again. If he
claims to be such an expert on CFI attitudes and aviation safety, then
why doesn't he make the case without resorting to smokescreen tactics
and weasel words? This is another example of people using their
sigfiles and reputation to do the arguing for them, which is exactly
what this group needs less of.

Full of crap as usual I see.

Although I have elaborated on this several times before on these forums,
I'll be more than happy to do it again here and now so that there can be
absolutely no misunderstanding as to why I view you as incompetent as a CFI.

You posted AS a CFI on these forums asking if shutting down the fuel on
takeoff with a student was a "good idea". You did this by your own word
in your initial post on the issue AFTER you had already done it with at
least one student. So right off the bat, you, posting as a CFI, were
asking a forum of pilots whether or not something you had already done
with a student was a good idea. This in itself constitutes extremely
poor PIC/CFI judgment as it establishes that you performed a specific
procedure with a student in the aircraft that at the moment you
performed that procedure you were not sure was safe and correct to perform.
This alone would disqualify you with me as a potential CFI hire.

Now, on to the rest of it.

When the fallacy of what you did was pointed out to you not only by
myself, but several other CFI's, instead of accepting the fact that what
you did might have been unsafe, you instead have consistently and ever
since not only attempted to defend the procedure with statements about
the length of the runway etc, but have actively engaged in an open
attempt to portray me as a know it all with some kind of a superiority
complex.

In summation, what you did by shutting down the fuel on take off with a
student was bad enough, as it's not necessary to do this to stress a
point and/or demonstrate an engine failure on takeoff. The reason for
this is quite simple. NO good instructor EVER deliberately puts a
student in a situation that purposely reduces or alters the existing
flight safety options. By selecting the fuel selector valve to OFF on
the takeoff roll, you deliberately put the student in unnecessary danger
by altering the escape option if power was needed to extricate the
aircraft from any unsafe condition that might arise on that takeoff.

What you did was not only unnecessary, it was unsafe!

The fact that you have chosen to challenge rather than simply thank the
instructors who have attempted to set you straight is an indication of a
personality trait I find freightening in a CFI.

I hope this post has answered any questions both you and others might
have had concerning this issue.
As you can see, I have addressed it quite clearly.



--
Dudley Henriques

On Aug 15, 6:51*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Full of crap as usual I see.

Although I have elaborated on this several times before on these forums,
I'll be more than happy to do it again here and now so that there can be
absolutely no misunderstanding as to why I view you as incompetent as a CFI.

You posted AS a CFI on these forums asking if shutting down the fuel on
takeoff with a student was a "good idea". You did this by your own word
in your initial post on the issue AFTER you had already done it with at
least one student. So right off the bat, you, posting as a CFI, were
asking a forum of pilots whether or not something you had already done
with a student was a good idea. This in itself constitutes extremely
poor PIC/CFI judgment as it establishes that you performed a specific
procedure with a student in the aircraft that at the moment you
performed that procedure you were not sure was safe and correct to perform.
This alone would disqualify you with me as a potential CFI hire.

Not quite. What I had already done was not the same thing that I was
asking about.

The day before I made that post, I realized that reaching over towards
the throttle and pulling it back is completely different from the
engine suddenly stopping. I felt that the next step was to try it out
with some students where that particular part of the equation removed.
Instead of reaching over, I will kill the engine by pulling the fuel
valve, since that way it's more realistic to an actual engine failure.
On the takeoff roll, on a 10,000+ ft runway, I pulled the fuel valve,
assuming it would die within a second or two. After 2 or 3 seconds, it
didn't doe, so I pulled the throttle back and aborted the takeoff.
What I did I can't believe is any more unsafe that hundreds of things
CFI's do on a regular basis. I can't accept someone telling me what I
did was attempted murder or whatever people were saying that day.
MEI's pull mixtures and fuel valves all the time in the takeoff roll
in multi-engine airplanes, which in my opinion is way more dangerous
than what I did. But do you see anyone persecuting MEI's who practice
that maneuver?

Later that day I made the thread asking about how long it would take
for the engine to die, and any other ideas about what to expect doing
this maneuver. The response was not what I expected. People were going
berserk, lead by none other than you. If I remember correctly, the
first few responses were pretty mild and well-reasoned, until a few
people such as yourself felt the need to jump in and hulk out. From
that point on, it was you and your sycophants having fun flinging crap
back and forth.

At the time, you and your retard buddies saying I was the world worst
instructor really got to me. I was fairly new to instructing and
didn't have a lot of confidence. I may have had a hard time explaining
myself and it got a little out of hand. But now that I've been at it
for a while, I see it this way: I have never had a complaint from a
student, an examiner, a fellow instructor, etc. etc. The only people
who have any qualms with me are people from Usenet. And it's not like
I'm any different online as I am when talking to people in real life.
After all the dust from that thread settled, I brought the issue up
with my boss, and we had a long discussion about it. No one lost their
temper, and no one accused of being the worlds worst instructor. I
explained to him as best as I could the precautions I made before
doing the actual maneuver (which I may not have made enough effort to
explain to the group when I made the thread). He understood that I
made an honest effort to assure safety and he even understood where I
was coming from when it came to the differences between a student
reacting to the instructor pulling the fuel valve which is hidden
under the seat, as opposed to reaching over and grabbing the throttle.
It was an enlightening and educational experience. We basically came
to the conclusion that it does have some instructing benefits (he said
his instructor back in the 70's used to pull the fuel valve all the
time on him in the C150), but you must be really really careful
because a lot of stuff could go wrong. The main thing I remember from
that conversation was he most definitely *did not* tell me it was
attempted murder or even something he wouldn't do if the conditions
were right (including a long runway, a proficient student, an empty
traffic pattern, among a few others) Too bad the same constructive
conversation couldn't have happened here...


Now, on to the rest of it.

When the fallacy of what you did was pointed out to you not only by
myself, but several other CFI's, instead of accepting the fact that what
you did might have been unsafe, you instead have consistently and ever
since not only attempted to defend the procedure with statements about
the length of the runway etc, but have actively engaged in an open
attempt to portray me as a know it all with some kind of a superiority
complex.

The reason I didn't accept your "criticism" (I say "criticism" because
it was more like "flaming"), was because you were either choosing to
ignore what I had done to ensure safety, or I hadn't explained myself
clear enough and instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, you
decided to breakdown any chance of meaningful discussion by assume the
worse.


In summation, what you did by shutting down the fuel on take off with a
student was bad enough, as it's not necessary to do this to stress a
point and/or demonstrate an engine failure on takeoff. The reason for
this is quite simple. NO good instructor EVER deliberately puts a
student in a situation that purposely reduces or alters the existing
flight safety options. By selecting the fuel selector valve to OFF on
the takeoff roll, you deliberately put the student in unnecessary danger
by altering the escape option if power was needed to extricate the
aircraft from any unsafe condition that might arise on that takeoff.

And how exactly is this outlandishly more unsafe that pulling the
mixture on takeoff in a multi-engine airplane? Or any other teaching
technique that pushes safety margins?

What you did was not only unnecessary, it was unsafe!

The fact that you have chosen to challenge rather than simply thank the
instructors who have attempted to set you straight is an indication of a
personality trait I find freightening in a CFI.

I am not going to thanks people who do nothing but flame me. I thanked
the people who added to the thread, and I thanked the head CFI at the
flight school where I worked at the time. But I'm sure as hell not
going to thank you or anyone else there for replying to me the way you
did. I don't praise deconstructive *anything*.

Safety is not a "yes" or "no" question. There are factors that make
something safe, and factors that make it unsafe. One would think a
person who claims to be a safety expert like you would know this.
Anyone who treats it as such, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to accept
them as a source of accurate, useful advice. I don't care how many
decades you've been investigating plane crashes, or how many students
you've soloed.


I hope this post has answered any questions both you and others might
have had concerning this issue.
As you can see, I have addressed it quite clearly.

And I have addressed myself quite clearly, I feel. But will you ever
let up? Will you ever accept that I have done even one thing right?
Will you ever maybe consider that you may have been wrong about me? No
you never will. Or at least you never have. At least the other
instructors who replied have moved on. You the only one left on this
"crusade" to spread the word to everybody you see about my
"incompetence". Thats why I feel you are nothing but a blow hard. You
are not interested in Aviation Safety, you are not interested in
Flight Instruction.

You've been playing the "worlds worst instructor" card since my like
20th Usenet post. I remember having like not much more than 20 posts
under the Buttman name. Do you really think it's professional to be
using names like that based on 10 post someone has made on the
internet? You've never met me, you've never flown with me, you've
never even met a single person who does know me. Yet you still insist
I am the worst "you've ever seen". Do you not think that maybe there
is more to me that you may be missing? All I know i that I would
never, ever call someone else "the worlds worst instructor" or
anything else as hyperbolic unless I was 100% certain that I knew the
whole picture, and that I had mounds of evidence to back that claim
up. Not just a few Usenet posts.

buttman wrote:
On Aug 15, 6:51 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Full of crap as usual I see.

Although I have elaborated on this several times before on these forums,
I'll be more than happy to do it again here and now so that there can be
absolutely no misunderstanding as to why I view you as incompetent as a CFI.

You posted AS a CFI on these forums asking if shutting down the fuel on
takeoff with a student was a "good idea". You did this by your own word
in your initial post on the issue AFTER you had already done it with at
least one student. So right off the bat, you, posting as a CFI, were
asking a forum of pilots whether or not something you had already done
with a student was a good idea. This in itself constitutes extremely
poor PIC/CFI judgment as it establishes that you performed a specific
procedure with a student in the aircraft that at the moment you
performed that procedure you were not sure was safe and correct to perform.
This alone would disqualify you with me as a potential CFI hire.

Not quite. What I had already done was not the same thing that I was
asking about.

The day before I made that post, I realized that reaching over towards
the throttle and pulling it back is completely different from the
engine suddenly stopping. I felt that the next step was to try it out
with some students where that particular part of the equation removed.
Instead of reaching over, I will kill the engine by pulling the fuel
valve, since that way it's more realistic to an actual engine failure.
On the takeoff roll, on a 10,000+ ft runway, I pulled the fuel valve,
assuming it would die within a second or two. After 2 or 3 seconds, it
didn't doe, so I pulled the throttle back and aborted the takeoff.
What I did I can't believe is any more unsafe that hundreds of things
CFI's do on a regular basis. I can't accept someone telling me what I
did was attempted murder or whatever people were saying that day.
MEI's pull mixtures and fuel valves all the time in the takeoff roll
in multi-engine airplanes, which in my opinion is way more dangerous
than what I did. But do you see anyone persecuting MEI's who practice
that maneuver?

Later that day I made the thread asking about how long it would take
for the engine to die, and any other ideas about what to expect doing
this maneuver. The response was not what I expected. People were going
berserk, lead by none other than you. If I remember correctly, the
first few responses were pretty mild and well-reasoned, until a few
people such as yourself felt the need to jump in and hulk out. From
that point on, it was you and your sycophants having fun flinging crap
back and forth.

At the time, you and your retard buddies saying I was the world worst
instructor really got to me. I was fairly new to instructing and
didn't have a lot of confidence. I may have had a hard time explaining
myself and it got a little out of hand. But now that I've been at it
for a while, I see it this way: I have never had a complaint from a
student, an examiner, a fellow instructor, etc. etc. The only people
who have any qualms with me are people from Usenet. And it's not like
I'm any different online as I am when talking to people in real life.
After all the dust from that thread settled, I brought the issue up
with my boss, and we had a long discussion about it. No one lost their
temper, and no one accused of being the worlds worst instructor. I
explained to him as best as I could the precautions I made before
doing the actual maneuver (which I may not have made enough effort to
explain to the group when I made the thread). He understood that I
made an honest effort to assure safety and he even understood where I
was coming from when it came to the differences between a student
reacting to the instructor pulling the fuel valve which is hidden
under the seat, as opposed to reaching over and grabbing the throttle.
It was an enlightening and educational experience. We basically came
to the conclusion that it does have some instructing benefits (he said
his instructor back in the 70's used to pull the fuel valve all the
time on him in the C150), but you must be really really careful
because a lot of stuff could go wrong. The main thing I remember from
that conversation was he most definitely *did not* tell me it was
attempted murder or even something he wouldn't do if the conditions
were right (including a long runway, a proficient student, an empty
traffic pattern, among a few others) Too bad the same constructive
conversation couldn't have happened here...

Now, on to the rest of it.

When the fallacy of what you did was pointed out to you not only by
myself, but several other CFI's, instead of accepting the fact that what
you did might have been unsafe, you instead have consistently and ever
since not only attempted to defend the procedure with statements about
the length of the runway etc, but have actively engaged in an open
attempt to portray me as a know it all with some kind of a superiority
complex.

The reason I didn't accept your "criticism" (I say "criticism" because
it was more like "flaming"), was because you were either choosing to
ignore what I had done to ensure safety, or I hadn't explained myself
clear enough and instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, you
decided to breakdown any chance of meaningful discussion by assume the
worse.

In summation, what you did by shutting down the fuel on take off with a
student was bad enough, as it's not necessary to do this to stress a
point and/or demonstrate an engine failure on takeoff. The reason for
this is quite simple. NO good instructor EVER deliberately puts a
student in a situation that purposely reduces or alters the existing
flight safety options. By selecting the fuel selector valve to OFF on
the takeoff roll, you deliberately put the student in unnecessary danger
by altering the escape option if power was needed to extricate the
aircraft from any unsafe condition that might arise on that takeoff.

And how exactly is this outlandishly more unsafe that pulling the
mixture on takeoff in a multi-engine airplane? Or any other teaching
technique that pushes safety margins?

What you did was not only unnecessary, it was unsafe!

The fact that you have chosen to challenge rather than simply thank the
instructors who have attempted to set you straight is an indication of a
personality trait I find freightening in a CFI.

I am not going to thanks people who do nothing but flame me. I thanked
the people who added to the thread, and I thanked the head CFI at the
flight school where I worked at the time. But I'm sure as hell not
going to thank you or anyone else there for replying to me the way you
did. I don't praise deconstructive *anything*.

Safety is not a "yes" or "no" question. There are factors that make
something safe, and factors that make it unsafe. One would think a
person who claims to be a safety expert like you would know this.
Anyone who treats it as such, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to accept
them as a source of accurate, useful advice. I don't care how many
decades you've been investigating plane crashes, or how many students
you've soloed.

I hope this post has answered any questions both you and others might
have had concerning this issue.
As you can see, I have addressed it quite clearly.

And I have addressed myself quite clearly, I feel. But will you ever
let up? Will you ever accept that I have done even one thing right?
Will you ever maybe consider that you may have been wrong about me? No
you never will. Or at least you never have. At least the other
instructors who replied have moved on. You the only one left on this
"crusade" to spread the word to everybody you see about my
"incompetence". Thats why I feel you are nothing but a blow hard. You
are not interested in Aviation Safety, you are not interested in
Flight Instruction.

You've been playing the "worlds worst instructor" card since my like
20th Usenet post. I remember having like not much more than 20 posts
under the Buttman name. Do you really think it's professional to be
using names like that based on 10 post someone has made on the
internet? You've never met me, you've never flown with me, you've
never even met a single person who does know me. Yet you still insist
I am the worst "you've ever seen". Do you not think that maybe there
is more to me that you may be missing? All I know i that I would
never, ever call someone else "the worlds worst instructor" or
anything else as hyperbolic unless I was 100% certain that I knew the
whole picture, and that I had mounds of evidence to back that claim
up. Not just a few Usenet posts.

I fully understand that you feel you have a case with this issue, and as
well that you feel there are CFI's on these forums who are being unfair
with you, myself in particular. You and I could argue the pros and cons
of what you did till dooms day and I'm sure neither of us will alter our
respective opinions.
I have no wish to hound you with rehashing this, and indeed have been
content to leave you completely alone. I have not posted to you or
posted about you unless I have seen my name used by you in one of your
posts here on these forums.
It is no secret I have no use for you as a CFI and I seriously doubt
from your attitude that I ever will. I have made my feelings known
clearly so you can not say I have refused to do this.
My desire at this point is that you and I go our separate ways on these
forums and have no further contact. This means I will neither post to
you or about you unless I see you have initiated my name in discussion.
Whether or not you discuss me is of course your choice. I don't respect
you or your judgment and I take it you have no use for mine.
If you use my name again on these forums, I will engage you instantly
with whatever response I deem necessary. If you refrain from doing that,
trust me, I have no further desire to have any contact with you.
I hope I've made myself clear. It's your call.
I suggest we both simply accept the situation and move on to other things.


--
Dudley Henriques

buttman wrote in
:

On Aug 15, 6:51*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Full of crap as usual I see.

Although I have elaborated on this several times before on these
forums, I'll be more than happy to do it again here and now so that
there can be absolutely no misunderstanding as to why I view you as
incompetent as a C
FI.

You posted AS a CFI on these forums asking if shutting down the fuel
on takeoff with a student was a "good idea". You did this by your own
word in your initial post on the issue AFTER you had already done it
with at least one student. So right off the bat, you, posting as a
CFI, were asking a forum of pilots whether or not something you had
already done with a student was a good idea. This in itself
constitutes extremely poor PIC/CFI judgment as it establishes that
you performed a specific procedure with a student in the aircraft
that at the moment you performed that procedure you were not sure was
safe and correct to perfor
m.
This alone would disqualify you with me as a potential CFI hire.

Not quite. What I had already done was not the same thing that I was
asking about.

The day before I made that post, I realized that reaching over towards
the throttle and pulling it back is completely different from the
engine suddenly stopping. I felt that the next step was to try it out
with some students where that particular part of the equation removed.
Instead of reaching over, I will kill the engine by pulling the fuel
valve, since that way it's more realistic to an actual engine failure.
On the takeoff roll, on a 10,000+ ft runway, I pulled the fuel valve,
assuming it would die within a second or two. After 2 or 3 seconds, it
didn't doe, so I pulled the throttle back and aborted the takeoff.
What I did I can't believe is any more unsafe that hundreds of things
CFI's do on a regular basis. I can't accept someone telling me what I
did was attempted murder or whatever people were saying that day.
MEI's pull mixtures and fuel valves all the time in the takeoff roll
in multi-engine airplanes, which in my opinion is way more dangerous
than what I did. But do you see anyone persecuting MEI's who practice
that maneuver?

Later that day I made the thread asking about how long it would take
for the engine to die, and any other ideas about what to expect doing
this maneuver. The response was not what I expected. People were going
berserk, lead by none other than you. If I remember correctly, the
first few responses were pretty mild and well-reasoned, until a few
people such as yourself felt the need to jump in and hulk out. From
that point on, it was you and your sycophants having fun flinging crap
back and forth.

At the time, you and your retard buddies saying I was the world worst
instructor really got to me. I was fairly new to instructing and
didn't have a lot of confidence. I may have had a hard time explaining
myself and it got a little out of hand. But now that I've been at it
for a while, I see it this way: I have never had a complaint from a
student, an examiner, a fellow instructor, etc. etc. The only people
who have any qualms with me are people from Usenet. And it's not like
I'm any different online as I am when talking to people in real life.
After all the dust from that thread settled, I brought the issue up
with my boss, and we had a long discussion about it. No one lost their
temper, and no one accused of being the worlds worst instructor. I
explained to him as best as I could the precautions I made before
doing the actual maneuver (which I may not have made enough effort to
explain to the group when I made the thread). He understood that I
made an honest effort to assure safety and he even understood where I
was coming from when it came to the differences between a student
reacting to the instructor pulling the fuel valve which is hidden
under the seat, as opposed to reaching over and grabbing the throttle.
It was an enlightening and educational experience. We basically came
to the conclusion that it does have some instructing benefits (he said
his instructor back in the 70's used to pull the fuel valve all the
time on him in the C150), but you must be really really careful
because a lot of stuff could go wrong. The main thing I remember from
that conversation was he most definitely *did not* tell me it was
attempted murder or even something he wouldn't do if the conditions
were right (including a long runway, a proficient student, an empty
traffic pattern, among a few others) Too bad the same constructive
conversation couldn't have happened here...


Now, on to the rest of it.

When the fallacy of what you did was pointed out to you not only by
myself, but several other CFI's, instead of accepting the fact that
what you did might have been unsafe, you instead have consistently
and ever since not only attempted to defend the procedure with
statements about the length of the runway etc, but have actively
engaged in an open attempt to portray me as a know it all with some
kind of a superiority complex.

The reason I didn't accept your "criticism" (I say "criticism" because
it was more like "flaming"), was because you were either choosing to
ignore what I had done to ensure safety, or I hadn't explained myself
clear enough and instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, you
decided to breakdown any chance of meaningful discussion by assume the
worse.


In summation, what you did by shutting down the fuel on take off with
a student was bad enough, as it's not necessary to do this to stress
a point and/or demonstrate an engine failure on takeoff. The reason
for this is quite simple. NO good instructor EVER deliberately puts a
student in a situation that purposely reduces or alters the existing
flight safety options. By selecting the fuel selector valve to OFF on
the takeoff roll, you deliberately put the student in unnecessary
danger by altering the escape option if power was needed to extricate
the aircraft from any unsafe condition that might arise on that
takeoff.

And how exactly is this outlandishly more unsafe that pulling the
mixture on takeoff in a multi-engine airplane? Or any other teaching
technique that pushes safety margins?

What you did was not only unnecessary, it was unsafe!

The fact that you have chosen to challenge rather than simply thank
the instructors who have attempted to set you straight is an
indication of a personality trait I find freightening in a CFI.

I am not going to thanks people who do nothing but flame me. I thanked
the people who added to the thread, and I thanked the head CFI at the
flight school where I worked at the time. But I'm sure as hell not
going to thank you or anyone else there for replying to me the way you
did. I don't praise deconstructive *anything*.

Safety is not a "yes" or "no" question. There are factors that make
something safe, and factors that make it unsafe. One would think a
person who claims to be a safety expert like you would know this.
Anyone who treats it as such, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to accept
them as a source of accurate, useful advice. I don't care how many
decades you've been investigating plane crashes, or how many students
you've soloed.


I hope this post has answered any questions both you and others might
have had concerning this issue.
As you can see, I have addressed it quite clearly.

And I have addressed myself quite clearly, I feel. But will you ever
let up? Will you ever accept that I have done even one thing right?
Will you ever maybe consider that you may have been wrong about me?


I consider it all the time, but you continue to post idiocy in a never
ending stream that pretty much closes off the door to the possibility
that you may actually have any sense whatsoever.

Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...


I consider it all the time, but you continue to post idiocy in a never
ending stream that pretty much closes off the door to the possibility
that you may actually have any sense whatsoever.

Bertie




Is this what your doctor tells you?

"Dakota" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in news:5G4qk.21397$LF2.1026
@newsfe09.iad:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...


I consider it all the time, but you continue to post idiocy in a never
ending stream that pretty much closes off the door to the possibility
that you may actually have any sense whatsoever.

Bertie




Is this what your doctor tells you?


Nah, usualy she tells me to cut out rice cakes.

Bertie

In article , Dakota says...


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...


I consider it all the time, but you continue to post idiocy in a never
ending stream that pretty much closes off the door to the possibility
that you may actually have any sense whatsoever.

Bertie

Is this what your doctor tells you?

You're just another one of Bertie's socks.

--

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds"

Maxwell luv2^fly99@live.^com wrote in news:MPG.2312a8a45874878798b279
@notbxpats.edu:

In article , Dakota says...


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...


I consider it all the time, but you continue to post idiocy in a never
ending stream that pretty much closes off the door to the possibility
that you may actually have any sense whatsoever.

Bertie

Is this what your doctor tells you?

You're just another one of Bertie's socks.


Is not. I prefer much more imaginative names. The person who came up with
that is a dullard..


Bertie