Just push the blue button!

"James Robinson" wrote in message
.. .
Bob Noel wrote:

Mike wrote:

"Bob Noel" wrote:

Mike wrote:

Diamond already has this on some of their aircraft. I don't know
that it has ever made a difference, however there are a large number
of fatalities caused by VFR to IMC (just like John-John).

John-John was VFR to IMC?

Yep.

hmmm, all the wx reports I saw were legal VMC (not smart VMC, but still
legal). Do you have reference to reports that the conditions were not
VMC?

Conditions were reported at above VFR minimums. The FAA manager at the
airport said that conditions were likely better than the official reports
at the time of the accident.

The NTSB report simply said that there can be illusions when flying over
sparcely-populated areas or over water in hazy conditions. In this case,
the loss of horizon:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19354&key=1

He didn't crash at the airport. Also any conditions reported by automated
wx stations only report conditions on the ground. Nantucket was reporting 4
miles visibility with mist in the area at the time. So even going by the
ground stations, clearly there were conditions in the general area that were
damn close to IMC. He didn't loose it near the ground either, he lost it at
altitude and probably around 2-3,000'.

One pilot reported visibilities as low as 2 miles in the area. Another flew
over Martha's Vinyard and thought there was a power outage because he saw no
lights. Most pilots in the area reported conditions much lower than was
forcast. Furthermore no pilot operating under VFR is going to tell the NTSB
they were in IMC.

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him
up.

On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of
IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before
the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip
him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

They did.

"The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and
simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had
trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for
the pilot's level of experience."

On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:45:48 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of
IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before
the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip
him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

They did.

"The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and
simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had
trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for
the pilot's level of experience."

Hmmmm, 300 hours dual and still having this problem. It was his
decision, probably thinking that he could auto pilot most of the way. So
many majorly bad decisions.

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:45:48 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his
instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although
he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of
IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before
the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to
trip
him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

They did.

"The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and
simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had
trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal
for
the pilot's level of experience."

Hmmmm, 300 hours dual and still having this problem. It was his
decision, probably thinking that he could auto pilot most of the way. So
many majorly bad decisions.

1) He didn't have 300 hours of dual, but even if he did that would be mostly
irrelevant. You learn how to multitask better solo than you do with another
pilot on board.

2) What part of "...he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience."
didn't you understand?

I've flown with plenty of 300 hour pilots who don't multitask well and some
of them had their instrument and commercial. I didn't multitask well at 300
hours. That's something you pick up with experience.

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:28:40 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:45:48 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his
instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although
he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of
IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before
the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to
trip
him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

They did.

"The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and
simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had
trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal
for
the pilot's level of experience."

Hmmmm, 300 hours dual and still having this problem. It was his
decision, probably thinking that he could auto pilot most of the way. So
many majorly bad decisions.

1) He didn't have 300 hours of dual, but even if he did that would be mostly
irrelevant. You learn how to multitask better solo than you do with another
pilot on board.

That concept worked real good for Kennedy, didn't it? Multi-tasking is
both a learned and an ingrained art. Some are best taught with co-pilot
guidance. Which do you think Kennedy was considering his fate?

2) What part of "...he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience."
didn't you understand?

None.

I've flown with plenty of 300 hour pilots who don't multitask well and some
of them had their instrument and commercial. I didn't multitask well at 300
hours. That's something you pick up with experience.

I've flown with many that have picked up MT skills well under 300. It's
not a black-white consideration.

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:28:40 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:45:48 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his
instrument
ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although
he
wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of
IFR.
Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly
can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight.
That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it
before
the
crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to
trip
him
up.

He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial
disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the
pooch
when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city.

His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps.

They did.

"The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and
simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot
had
trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal
for
the pilot's level of experience."

Hmmmm, 300 hours dual and still having this problem. It was his
decision, probably thinking that he could auto pilot most of the way. So
many majorly bad decisions.

1) He didn't have 300 hours of dual, but even if he did that would be
mostly
irrelevant. You learn how to multitask better solo than you do with
another
pilot on board.

That concept worked real good for Kennedy, didn't it? Multi-tasking is
both a learned and an ingrained art. Some are best taught with co-pilot
guidance. Which do you think Kennedy was considering his fate?

2) What part of "...he felt was normal for the pilot's level of
experience."
didn't you understand?

None.

I've flown with plenty of 300 hour pilots who don't multitask well and
some
of them had their instrument and commercial. I didn't multitask well at
300
hours. That's something you pick up with experience.

I've flown with many that have picked up MT skills well under 300. It's
not a black-white consideration.

Some do, but it's certainly not out of line that he didn't. As far as his
decision making goes, the actual conditions turned out worse than anyone had
forecast. Flying at night can always turn into a hazardous situation, but
Kennedy had flown a considerable amount of time with an instructor at night,
and he was working on his instrument ticket. So he was genuinely interested
in improving his flying skills and there's nothing to indicate he made any
bad decisions. My guess is he probably attempted too steep of a turn and
had no idea he was in any danger of spacial disorientation because he didn't
recognize that he was in instrument conditions. Unfortunately it's a common
mistake for low time pilots and lots of them kill themselves that way.

Mike writes:

I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him
up.

From what I've heard about him, it sounds like a bit of haze would be more
than enough to trip him up.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Mike writes:

I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him
up.

From what I've heard about him, it sounds like a bit of haze would be
more than enough to trip him up.


Like you'd know, fjukkwit.


Bertie

Anthony, how would you know about Kennedy, Lindberg, or anyone else? Have
you ever flown with them? Of course not. Have you ever flown at all- of
course not.

So, you've never flown or even taken a lesson, yet you presume to judge
others who have actually gone through the process?

Not likely by any criteria.