Primary Glider Drawings

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
snippage
Let me throw in a slightly controversial idea.

Low L/D, taken in isolation, offers no benefit whatsoever in a trainer.
In
fact, higher L/D is a safety feature that gets an inexperienced pilot back
to the runway after a bad judgement call. In spite of this, there is an
instinctive reaction among most glider pilots to inversely relate L/D and
safe handling qualities.

In a soaring environment, I think you're right. But that is not the
environment veeduber is proposing.

He's proposing a cheap "hook" to capture the attention of teenagers.
Teenagers who might not have two grand or so to shell out for glider
lessons, but might well have some sweat equity to invest in building
something that actually flies.

For this target group, it has to be something that goes together pretty
quickly. If it takes a thousand hours of construction, it isn't likely to
get started, let alone completed.

For veeduber's purposes, I think he will have achieved part of his goal if
it gets even half built. Kids will be using their heads and their hands to
solve problems.

For this environment, it's not performance that counts, but energy. With a
fairly draggy airframe, you can limit the amount of energy available to
damage the pilot.

Somewhere on Mike Sandlin's site, he remarks on this, limiting the energy by
how far up the training hill you drag the glider.

snippage

"Primary gliders" were an expedient developed in an environment that
lacked
adequate two-seat trainers. They were abandoned with great relief as soon
as usable 2-seater trainers became available. Today, there are a great
number of excellent 2-seat trainers and qualified instructors. Only a
fool
would try to learn flying in a "Primary".

I can't entirely disagree, but people learn to fly hang gliders, with
similar performance limitations, every day.
There is some tandem instruction available, and that's good. But in
general, it's not the instruction process that kills people.
A two-place primary under 155 lbs might sneak in under USHGPA's tandem
exemption, here in the U.S. Maybe.


Tim Ward

"Tim Ward" wrote in message
...

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
snippage
Let me throw in a slightly controversial idea.

Low L/D, taken in isolation, offers no benefit whatsoever in a trainer.
In
fact, higher L/D is a safety feature that gets an inexperienced pilot
back
to the runway after a bad judgement call. In spite of this, there is an
instinctive reaction among most glider pilots to inversely relate L/D and
safe handling qualities.

In a soaring environment, I think you're right. But that is not the
environment veeduber is proposing.

He's proposing a cheap "hook" to capture the attention of teenagers.
Teenagers who might not have two grand or so to shell out for glider
lessons, but might well have some sweat equity to invest in building
something that actually flies.

For this target group, it has to be something that goes together pretty
quickly. If it takes a thousand hours of construction, it isn't likely
to
get started, let alone completed.

For veeduber's purposes, I think he will have achieved part of his goal if
it gets even half built. Kids will be using their heads and their hands
to
solve problems.

For this environment, it's not performance that counts, but energy. With
a
fairly draggy airframe, you can limit the amount of energy available to
damage the pilot.

Somewhere on Mike Sandlin's site, he remarks on this, limiting the energy
by
how far up the training hill you drag the glider.

snippage

"Primary gliders" were an expedient developed in an environment that
lacked
adequate two-seat trainers. They were abandoned with great relief as
soon
as usable 2-seater trainers became available. Today, there are a great
number of excellent 2-seat trainers and qualified instructors. Only a
fool
would try to learn flying in a "Primary".

I can't entirely disagree, but people learn to fly hang gliders, with
similar performance limitations, every day.
There is some tandem instruction available, and that's good. But in
general, it's not the instruction process that kills people.
A two-place primary under 155 lbs might sneak in under USHGPA's tandem
exemption, here in the U.S. Maybe.


Tim Ward



OK, but don't build one, buy one. There are a few around. Take it out to a
hill or dry lake and try flying it. This is also done on occasion. What
you won't do is fly it two days in a row. One day will convince just about
anybody that primaries are a really bad idea.

Primary gliders are a huge amount of work to fly - expecially if you use the
traditional bungee launch method which is really the only safe way to fly
one. Aero tow or winch launch is terrfying in a primary - although this is
also done on occasion. (But rarely twice in a lifetime by the same pilot.)

To fly one as it was intended, you need a huge grassy slope that is slightly
shallower than the glide ratio of the primary. The bungee launch will get
the glider to just above stall speed a couple of feet above the ground. If
the pilot can hold the exact best L/D airspeed and keep it perfectly
coordinated, he will be rewarded with a glide of a couple of hundred yards -
maybe 30 seconds of airtime. If he deviates in any way from perfection, the
glider will quickly settle into the grass. If you have 15 - 20 knots of
wind up the slope, the instructor can run along side shouting instructions.
Then everybody gets to haul it back up the slope. All this exercise will
achieve about ten flights a day but it WILL get you in shape.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6-EeuEi-KY
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgBJ52L-Rao

I have a better idea that fits well with the homebuilder ethic. Build a
winch.
See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchengineer/files/

The really big cost in learning to fly gliders is aero tow. It averages
about $50 for a 15 minute flight. Add instructor and glider rental and it's
not unusual to see $250 and hour. Multi-engine training is cheaper.
Winches can reduce launch costs to $5 and glider training rates to ~$50/hr.
Certified glider trainers aren't expensive if you can keep the utilization
high.

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like that at
Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like that at
Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels



Unfortunately, the liability issue kills the whole thing before it can
even get off the ground.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like that
at Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels



Unfortunately, the liability issue kills the whole thing before it can
even get off the ground.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

What liability issue? Everything is insured.

This is done throughout the world as well as in the USA. The glider policy
covers the occupants and the airfield policy covers the winch. In fact, the
insurance is much cheaper than for an airplane. Although it is very
exciting, it isn't particularly dangerous if done by well trained pilots and
winch operators.

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like
that at Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels



Unfortunately, the liability issue kills the whole thing before it can
even get off the ground.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

What liability issue? Everything is insured.

This is done throughout the world as well as in the USA. The glider
policy covers the occupants and the airfield policy covers the winch. In
fact, the insurance is much cheaper than for an airplane. Although it is
very exciting, it isn't particularly dangerous if done by well trained
pilots and winch operators.

Bill Daniels

First, let me confess that my total actual experience in a glider was a
single flight in a 2 seat Blanik and was launched by aero-tow.

That said, and just looking at the mechanics of the thing, I suspect that a
winch is probably the safest way to launch a glider--at least in an area
where you don't need the extra altitude that an aero-tow can provide. So,
where applicable, and with proberly trained pilots as you pointed out, it
should be an ideal way to incorporate gliders into a Young Eagles program.
It seems to have all of the best elements: (1) just about as safe as it can
get, (2) just about as cheap as it can get, and (3) utterly fascinating for
kids from 8 to 80!

It might revive chapters and entire airports.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
.. .
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like
that at Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels



Unfortunately, the liability issue kills the whole thing before it can
even get off the ground.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

What liability issue? Everything is insured.

This is done throughout the world as well as in the USA. The glider
policy covers the occupants and the airfield policy covers the winch. In
fact, the insurance is much cheaper than for an airplane. Although it is
very exciting, it isn't particularly dangerous if done by well trained
pilots and winch operators.

Bill Daniels

First, let me confess that my total actual experience in a glider was a
single flight in a 2 seat Blanik and was launched by aero-tow.

That said, and just looking at the mechanics of the thing, I suspect that
a winch is probably the safest way to launch a glider--at least in an area
where you don't need the extra altitude that an aero-tow can provide. So,
where applicable, and with proberly trained pilots as you pointed out, it
should be an ideal way to incorporate gliders into a Young Eagles program.
It seems to have all of the best elements: (1) just about as safe as it
can get, (2) just about as cheap as it can get, and (3) utterly
fascinating for kids from 8 to 80!

It might revive chapters and entire airports.

Peter

The theoretical maximum height from a winch launch is half the initial rope
length. (4000' runway gets 2000' AGL) Most operations achieve at least 40%.
With most runways, this will be higher than auto tow. Of course, if you
have unlimited room like a huge dry lake, auto tow will get you higher.
Winch launches in Germany have reached 5400' AGL from a 10,000' runway.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
.. .
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..


What liability issue? Everything is insured.

This is done throughout the world as well as in the USA. The glider
policy covers the occupants and the airfield policy covers the winch.
In fact, the insurance is much cheaper than for an airplane. Although
it is very exciting, it isn't particularly dangerous if done by well
trained pilots and winch operators.

Bill Daniels

First, let me confess that my total actual experience in a glider was a
single flight in a 2 seat Blanik and was launched by aero-tow.

That said, and just looking at the mechanics of the thing, I suspect that
a winch is probably the safest way to launch a glider--at least in an
area where you don't need the extra altitude that an aero-tow can
provide. So, where applicable, and with proberly trained pilots as you
pointed out, it should be an ideal way to incorporate gliders into a
Young Eagles program. It seems to have all of the best elements: (1)
just about as safe as it can get, (2) just about as cheap as it can get,
and (3) utterly fascinating for kids from 8 to 80!

It might revive chapters and entire airports.

Peter

The theoretical maximum height from a winch launch is half the initial
rope length. (4000' runway gets 2000' AGL) Most operations achieve at
least 40%. With most runways, this will be higher than auto tow. Of
course, if you have unlimited room like a huge dry lake, auto tow will get
you higher. Winch launches in Germany have reached 5400' AGL from a
10,000' runway.

That's actually better than I thought it would be. I was thinking of an
initial rope length of 3000 to 4000 feet, and presumed a height of 1000 to
1200 feet compared to around 2000 feet for aero tow. So, it looks like
winch launching could be quite competitive, even in very flat country,
except for the need to release over the airport.

Peter

Bill Daniels wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

Bill Daniels wrote:

And I GUARANTEE it attracts young people. You can't buy a ride like that
at Disneyland.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOp_EsplxDM

Bill Daniels



Unfortunately, the liability issue kills the whole thing before it can
even get off the ground.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


What liability issue? Everything is insured.

This is done throughout the world as well as in the USA. The glider policy
covers the occupants and the airfield policy covers the winch. In fact, the
insurance is much cheaper than for an airplane. Although it is very
exciting, it isn't particularly dangerous if done by well trained pilots and
winch operators.

Bill Daniels



Sorry Bill, I was stlii thinking Primary Glider.

I doubt you could find anyone that would underwrite a solo training
glider.

Dual sailplanes, with instructor - or at least qualified pilot - aboard
might be another story entirely.
--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Bill Daniels wrote:
Primary gliders are a huge amount of work to fly - expecially if you use the
traditional bungee launch method which is really the only safe way to fly
one. Aero tow or winch launch is terrfying in a primary - although this is
also done on occasion. (But rarely twice in a lifetime by the same pilot.)

To fly one as it was intended, you need a huge grassy slope that is slightly
shallower than the glide ratio of the primary. The bungee launch will get
the glider to just above stall speed a couple of feet above the ground. If
the pilot can hold the exact best L/D airspeed and keep it perfectly
coordinated, he will be rewarded with a glide of a couple of hundred yards -
maybe 30 seconds of airtime. If he deviates in any way from perfection, the
glider will quickly settle into the grass. If you have 15 - 20 knots of
wind up the slope, the instructor can run along side shouting instructions.
Then everybody gets to haul it back up the slope. All this exercise will
achieve about ten flights a day but it WILL get you in shape.

Bill, this is a good point, except veedubber was talking about using
these particular contraptions to attract young-uns. Now, I don't know
how it is where you live, but here in NC we get MAYBE one good snow a
year. These young-uns will bundle up till they look like balloons, then
go run up a snow covered hill for a slow bumpy ride down a shallow slope.

I could be wrong, but I'm just not seeing the physical exertion aspect
being a big detraction for the target group.