AT, TAT, MAT?

On Oct 9, 11:23*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
All -

Does anyone know of any good books or articles on the nuts-and-
bolts */ common-strategies of how to fly the various competition task
types?

I'm still waiting on my copy of Winning II, but Reichmann and
Brigliadori don't really touch on these and the competition rules only
define what the tasks ARE, not how to approach flying them...

I haven't yet been able to find any good reading material (other than
the SRA 2005 Comp Guide) on how to approach the different task types -
anyone have any recommendations?

BTW, I've read some of the different rules documents, and it may be
that I don't fully understand the scoring system... the big question-
marks in my mind relate to speed points vs. distance points, and their
trade-offs. *For example: when is it worthwhile to push for extra
distance, even if it might hurt the average speed you have going (so
far) during a task?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

Hi Noel,

John Cochrane's web pages have a bunch of interesting reading. Some
of it is fairly "deep" (hey, he's an economist for chrissakes - sorry
John), so be prepared to white board and talk to yourself while you
read.

http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.c...rs/#For_glider

For my part, I'd also suggest you keep it simple. Aside from the
obvious stuff like being prepared, knowing the basic rules, etc. I'd
do the following:

- All tasks: Assuming you have the basic flying skills (e.g.
thermalling, cruising, etc.), try to stay with people, preferably a
few people who are a bit better than you. Don't be embarassed about
"leaching" in your first contest. At the same time, don't get in
the way. You'll be amazed at how much you'll learn.

- All tasks: Start early and let the good guys catch up to you.
No, really. Forget about start gate roulette or trying to start at
the "optimal time". If you're near/at the top of the gate and it
looks like the day is more-or-less "cooking", go ahead and start.
Sometimes, a few more folks will start soon after, and you'll have
them to fly with for a while. More often than not, they'll sit in
their cockpits laughing (privately) at your rookie mistake while you
get hung out to dry. Inevitably, the good guys will catch you and
pass you. Maybe you can hang with them for a couple of thermals.

- AAT: In theory, you want to finish the task more or less "on
time"; ie. if it's a three hour task, you want to finish around 3
hours. Good theory. In practice, most newbies have trouble hitting
a precise time because their flying is inconsistent. The penalty for
being under time is way worse than being a bit over. Shoot for 15
minutes over time. You'll be so slow that it won't really matter, and
your goal at this point should be to build up contest time anyway.

- MAT: Similar to AAT in terms of time. Other than that, the one
big one is to always aim for a "target rich environment". If there's
a quadrant that has lots of turnpoint options, go there, other things
being equal (i.e. unless it looks like crap compared to the other
areas). There's nothing worse than banking on one turnpoint that
miles from nowhere, only to find that it's surrounded by the only blue
hole/thunderstorm/over-development in the contest area. To put it
another way, always give yourself some options in case the turnpoint
you thought you were heading for isn't going to work out.

There you have it. Follow the above, and you're guaranteed not to
come in DFL.

P3

On Oct 10, 10:11 am, Papa3 wrote:
On Oct 9, 11:23 pm, "noel.wade" wrote:



All -

Does anyone know of any good books or articles on the nuts-and-
bolts / common-strategies of how to fly the various competition task
types?

I'm still waiting on my copy of Winning II, but Reichmann and
Brigliadori don't really touch on these and the competition rules only
define what the tasks ARE, not how to approach flying them...

I haven't yet been able to find any good reading material (other than
the SRA 2005 Comp Guide) on how to approach the different task types -
anyone have any recommendations?

BTW, I've read some of the different rules documents, and it may be
that I don't fully understand the scoring system... the big question-
marks in my mind relate to speed points vs. distance points, and their
trade-offs. For example: when is it worthwhile to push for extra
distance, even if it might hurt the average speed you have going (so
far) during a task?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

Hi Noel,

John Cochrane's web pages have a bunch of interesting reading. Some
of it is fairly "deep" (hey, he's an economist for chrissakes - sorry
John), so be prepared to white board and talk to yourself while you
read.

http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.c...rs/#For_glider

For my part, I'd also suggest you keep it simple. Aside from the
obvious stuff like being prepared, knowing the basic rules, etc. I'd
do the following:

- All tasks: Assuming you have the basic flying skills (e.g.
thermalling, cruising, etc.), try to stay with people, preferably a
few people who are a bit better than you. Don't be embarassed about
"leaching" in your first contest. At the same time, don't get in
the way. You'll be amazed at how much you'll learn.

- All tasks: Start early and let the good guys catch up to you.
No, really. Forget about start gate roulette or trying to start at
the "optimal time". If you're near/at the top of the gate and it
looks like the day is more-or-less "cooking", go ahead and start.
Sometimes, a few more folks will start soon after, and you'll have
them to fly with for a while. More often than not, they'll sit in
their cockpits laughing (privately) at your rookie mistake while you
get hung out to dry. Inevitably, the good guys will catch you and
pass you. Maybe you can hang with them for a couple of thermals.

- AAT: In theory, you want to finish the task more or less "on
time"; ie. if it's a three hour task, you want to finish around 3
hours. Good theory. In practice, most newbies have trouble hitting
a precise time because their flying is inconsistent. The penalty for
being under time is way worse than being a bit over. Shoot for 15
minutes over time. You'll be so slow that it won't really matter, and
your goal at this point should be to build up contest time anyway.

- MAT: Similar to AAT in terms of time. Other than that, the one
big one is to always aim for a "target rich environment". If there's
a quadrant that has lots of turnpoint options, go there, other things
being equal (i.e. unless it looks like crap compared to the other
areas). There's nothing worse than banking on one turnpoint that
miles from nowhere, only to find that it's surrounded by the only blue
hole/thunderstorm/over-development in the contest area. To put it
another way, always give yourself some options in case the turnpoint
you thought you were heading for isn't going to work out.

There you have it. Follow the above, and you're guaranteed not to
come in DFL.

P3

I'll add a couple things (with 2 whole contests under my belt!):

1. look at the forecast for the day. Generally the weather report
you get will plot the expected cloudbase through the day. Plan
on flying your task during the best hours of the day. It works
against
you to start in weaker conditions and finish while there's still an
hour
of strong lift available. This factor favors the MAT and TAT format
over
the AT, since with an assigned task you have to worry about how long
the task will take you and then center THAT in the best soaring!

2. Estimate your speed on task once you know how good the day will be.
Based on that you can determine how far you want to go into the
cylinders,
or how many turnpoints to hit on a MAT. E.g., task time is 3 hours,
conditions are good, so you think you will fly 60mph. Nominal task
length is
160 miles, minimum 120, maximum 200. You'd better fly deep into that
first
cylinder or else you're going to be stuck coming in early.

3. Practice makes perfect. During your weekend flying with your
friends
get together early and call a MAT or TAT for the day and see how it
works.
Also, get Condor and use it in the off season. Mostly the online
competitions
call ATs or arcade tasks, but you can program your own tasks and even
host
them so others come to join. Best of all, you can connect your PDA to
Condor and learn how to use it for MAT and TAT tasks.

Most importantly, fly safe and have fun!
-- Matt (sometimes AI)

Here are a few extra hints to make sure that you actually complete the
task:

1) Check your waypoint data, especially if you've entered or updated
any manually. (We once had a competitor enter the wrong coordinates
for a turnpoint and then flew about 90-degrees off course to a landout
in the middle of nowhere)

2) Make sure that you fly the current day's task and not
yesterday's. (I've seen that happen a couple of times).

3) If flying an MAT with poor weather conditions make sure that you
have a choice of turnpoints. (I blew a task last year when I chose
two successive turnpoints with no close alternatives that had
thunderstorms over them when I arrived).

Finishing the task should be your first goal. When you've figured out
how to do that, then you can increase your speed!

Mike

"Mike the Strike" wrote in message
...
Here are a few extra hints to make sure that you actually complete the
task:

1) Check your waypoint data, especially if you've entered or updated
any manually. (We once had a competitor enter the wrong coordinates
for a turnpoint and then flew about 90-degrees off course to a landout
in the middle of nowhere)

2) Make sure that you fly the current day's task and not
yesterday's. (I've seen that happen a couple of times).

3) If flying an MAT with poor weather conditions make sure that you
have a choice of turnpoints. (I blew a task last year when I chose
two successive turnpoints with no close alternatives that had
thunderstorms over them when I arrived).

Finishing the task should be your first goal. When you've figured out
how to do that, then you can increase your speed!

Mike



All good suggestions.

In addition---Don't cut your final glide close. Practice with the software
till you can trust it. Add an extra 200 ft until you know it is safe. It is
really neat to make it home past the other gliders in the nearby field.


Hartley

Thanks for all the tips and info, folks! Big thanks for the links to
John Cochrane & KS's past articles.

A couple of responses to the concerns and basic "just fly the task"
comments, so you understand where I'm coming from:

1) I'm flying with an S-Nav, a PDA (XCSoar), and an ewMicroRecorder.
I've practiced using all of the above equipment with AT-type tasks,
but I do need to figure out to set up MAT and TAT tasks. :-) I've
definitely spent some time dialing in my polar and final-glide
settings to try to make that part of it accurate, though (and I'm not
there yet).

2) I have been a big proponent of the Condor soaring simulator since I
first started working on transitioning from SEL to Glider. I have a
nice setup and have flown a lot of hours with it over the last 2
years. I think the thermals are slightly too symmetrical (too easy to
perfectly center in many cases) - but otherwise its an EXCELLENT
resource. Didn't think you could do MAT or TAT tasks with it,
though...

3) Practice: My last several flights at EPH this summer I made a
point of researching in the morning (see point #4 below), and picking
a few waypoints. I then flew to (or beyond) these waypoints on my
flights (noting differences in the forecast and the actual
conditions). I've also spent a fair amount of time flying near
Seattle itself, where cloudbases are very low and the lift is
typically only about 2 knots. This week I did a 125km+ XC flight -
which doesn't sound like much until you learn that the cloudbase was
3000' MSL and we were dodging rain-showers the whole time; and half of
the pilots that day landed out! Flying in weak conditions may not
allow for big distances, but the skills you develop in making low-
saves and "tiptoeing around" are invaluable!

4) Weather: For me this is a hugely important skill to learn as a
pilot. I've worked to become the chief forecaster for our local (west-
side) club. I am still working to get better at reading individual
clouds and timing my jumps to them, but I have become very adept at
using soundings (both real and simulated) and other online weather
resources to figure out the forecasted conditions at various points
along my flight-path. I'll admit it: mostly, I'm stubborn and I don't
trust other people's forecasts. I want to read the tea-leaves myself,
and then if I screw up I have no one else to blame. :-P

5) When to turn: This is still a big one for me. I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... *sigh*

For those that have read this far (I'm impressed!) and have flown in
competitions: On a good day (thermal-strength-wise), how big of an
altitude band do you typically use when jumping between individual
clouds? I know about McCready theory and using streets and energy
lines and such; but I am curious about people's experiences and
anecdotal evidence. And yes, I know the exact answer is dependant
upon terrain and conditions - but I'm still interested to know what
your rough estimate is.

Thanks again for some excellent suggestions and information!

Take care,

--Noel

Noel, I'm in the same boat as you, so I've been following this thread.
Regarding Altitude band, I find it educational to review other guys at
my field flights on OLC to see their speeds, alt band, how often they
stopped and circled, how many times they stopped only to abandone the
thermal, etc.

Noel (and Barny and all):

Since others might be in the same boat, here is a review of height
bands. Please accept my apology if this goes too far back as others
might benefit.

According to Phil Petmecky's "Breaking the Apron Strings, page 29 and
33," Flight bands are designed solely to increase your speed. The
primary time to use flight bands is when speed or time is a factor;
such as during a contest task, or a long badge flight, or racing the
sun or clouds (this last one is my addition). Altitude bands allow us
to fly fast when conditions warrant, without reducing our options at
lower altitudes. Flight bands expand our options as we get lower.

Per Bob Wander's "Glider Polars and Speed-to-fly Made Easy, page 18,"
Fly aggressive speeds when high in the band, conservative speeds when
in the middle of the band, and fly survival speeds when low in the
band.

The normal operating band is most often the top two thirds of the
convection layer (e.g.: If the maximum achieved altitude is 6,000'
AGL, the normal operating band is between 2,000-6,000 feet). But until
confidence is gained, the new cross-country pilot might use the top
half of the convection layer as the normal operating height band.
Below the normal operating band, any lift should be used (until
gaining more experience).

Raul Boerner
LS6-b
(also with only two Regionals under the belt)

noel.wade wrote:
Thanks for all the tips and info, folks! Big thanks for the links to
John Cochrane & KS's past articles.

A couple of responses to the concerns and basic "just fly the task"
comments, so you understand where I'm coming from:

1) I'm flying with an S-Nav, a PDA (XCSoar), and an ewMicroRecorder.
I've practiced using all of the above equipment with AT-type tasks,
but I do need to figure out to set up MAT and TAT tasks. :-) I've
definitely spent some time dialing in my polar and final-glide
settings to try to make that part of it accurate, though (and I'm not
there yet).

2) I have been a big proponent of the Condor soaring simulator since I
first started working on transitioning from SEL to Glider. I have a
nice setup and have flown a lot of hours with it over the last 2
years. I think the thermals are slightly too symmetrical (too easy to
perfectly center in many cases) - but otherwise its an EXCELLENT
resource. Didn't think you could do MAT or TAT tasks with it,
though...

3) Practice: My last several flights at EPH this summer I made a
point of researching in the morning (see point #4 below), and picking
a few waypoints. I then flew to (or beyond) these waypoints on my
flights (noting differences in the forecast and the actual
conditions). I've also spent a fair amount of time flying near
Seattle itself, where cloudbases are very low and the lift is
typically only about 2 knots. This week I did a 125km+ XC flight -
which doesn't sound like much until you learn that the cloudbase was
3000' MSL and we were dodging rain-showers the whole time; and half of
the pilots that day landed out! Flying in weak conditions may not
allow for big distances, but the skills you develop in making low-
saves and "tiptoeing around" are invaluable!

4) Weather: For me this is a hugely important skill to learn as a
pilot. I've worked to become the chief forecaster for our local (west-
side) club. I am still working to get better at reading individual
clouds and timing my jumps to them, but I have become very adept at
using soundings (both real and simulated) and other online weather
resources to figure out the forecasted conditions at various points
along my flight-path. I'll admit it: mostly, I'm stubborn and I don't
trust other people's forecasts. I want to read the tea-leaves myself,
and then if I screw up I have no one else to blame. :-P

5) When to turn: This is still a big one for me. I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... *sigh*
Hi Noel, just my opinion as a low experience contest pilot.

Thermal entry from fast cruise is a very important skill.

As a beginner on this (4 contests - low scores, speed improving) from high speed the trick is to pull up relatively hard
and straight, as the speed bleeds off you can hunt a little to feel which way the lift is best. IF the vario gets to
above your MC Cready setting then turn that way when your speed is near what you want to thermal at. If the vario tops
out below whatever your MC setting is at that height, get the nose down as the lift reduces and keep going. (Thanks mr
Moffatt) Implies you know have decided what your MC number is going to be for the top 50%, next 20%-30% and the
"survival" part of the soaring band. The really hard part is being ruthless about bad thermals, too weak, too broken up,
or just behind you are all thermals that you need to disdain and reject.

If the vario setup is bad you can have a lot of frustration - suggest you have someone who has the experience fly your
ship and get an opinion on whether your probe and vario are working well.
My performance improved markedly when I got a reasonable vario as opposed to the laggy, inaccurate vintage thing my ship
came with. Of course, now I know the poor performance is due to the laggy, inaccurate pilot.


For those that have read this far (I'm impressed!) and have flown in
competitions: On a good day (thermal-strength-wise), how big of an
altitude band do you typically use when jumping between individual
clouds? I know about McCready theory and using streets and energy
lines and such; but I am curious about people's experiences and
anecdotal evidence. And yes, I know the exact answer is dependant
upon terrain and conditions - but I'm still interested to know what
your rough estimate is.

Thanks again for some excellent suggestions and information!

Take care,

--Noel

5) When to turn: *This is still a big one for me. *I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. *At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! *Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... **sigh*


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.

Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

Thanks all,

This may sound egotistical, but when I'm alone or with one or two
other gliders I'm pretty confident my thermaling skills are above-
average (I admit that I still need work in gaggles). I tend to circle
a little bit faster than some folks (usually 48 - 50 knots in my
DG-300), but I turn at a tight 45 - 50 degree bank angle - never less
(narrow thermals here in the west). Doing the math on load factors at
various bank-angles, and given my min-sink speed of about 42 knots, I
think this thermaling speed may be about right (despite some "advice"
that I should be circling slower). The glider certainly doesn't
"groove" through the turns as well when I really try to slow it up and
fly in the mid-to-lower 40's at these bank angles. BTW, I don't
credit my climb capabilities to talent or anything; I just got started
flying in a place where 1 - 2 knot lift was the norm, and cloudbases
are typically around 3000'. If you want to get anywhere in those
conditions, you *cannot* miss a climb or lose a thermal!

I just got "Winning II" last night, and I'm glad to hear someone with
John's experience discount Moffat's thermal entry technique. The
vario swings due to TE compensation and the sudden/aerobatic thermal
entry at 80+ knots seems like it would make it incredibly hard to
judge what the thermal strength truly is (in addition to the safety
issues if you rocket up farther than expected and wind up smack in the
middle of a gaggle that's already circling).

Oh, and unless I'm really low I _never_ make S turns and hunt. :-) I
usually have 2 "targets" in mind when I set out on each inter-thermal
glide; a primary thermal marker (or best guess) and a backup somewhere
beyond it along my course-line. I try to only slow down and hunt if I
hit bumps or other evidence of lift where I'm already expecting it at
these target-points. But sometimes I feel like I've bypassed a good
thermal along the way (perhaps better than the one I'll find at my
target area). Like I said in my earlier post, occasionally I try for
these "good bumps" - and get skunked most of the time. And the cost
of slowing down, turning a circle (even just one) for no gain, and
then speeding back up is just HUGE.

I just don't know if the "cure" is to avoid circling at all in these
situations, or if there are better ways to determine if the lift is
big enough or good enough to work without actually throwing in a
circle.

Thanks for the tip on downloading race flights/IGC files. I've been
meaning to do that, now its time I actually follow through!

Take care,

--Noel