AT, TAT, MAT?

5) When to turn: *This is still a big one for me. *I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. *At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! *Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... **sigh*


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.

Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

Thanks all,

This may sound egotistical, but when I'm alone or with one or two
other gliders I'm pretty confident my thermaling skills are above-
average (I admit that I still need work in gaggles). I tend to circle
a little bit faster than some folks (usually 48 - 50 knots in my
DG-300), but I turn at a tight 45 - 50 degree bank angle - never less
(narrow thermals here in the west). Doing the math on load factors at
various bank-angles, and given my min-sink speed of about 42 knots, I
think this thermaling speed may be about right (despite some "advice"
that I should be circling slower). The glider certainly doesn't
"groove" through the turns as well when I really try to slow it up and
fly in the mid-to-lower 40's at these bank angles. BTW, I don't
credit my climb capabilities to talent or anything; I just got started
flying in a place where 1 - 2 knot lift was the norm, and cloudbases
are typically around 3000'. If you want to get anywhere in those
conditions, you *cannot* miss a climb or lose a thermal!

I just got "Winning II" last night, and I'm glad to hear someone with
John's experience discount Moffat's thermal entry technique. The
vario swings due to TE compensation and the sudden/aerobatic thermal
entry at 80+ knots seems like it would make it incredibly hard to
judge what the thermal strength truly is (in addition to the safety
issues if you rocket up farther than expected and wind up smack in the
middle of a gaggle that's already circling).

Oh, and unless I'm really low I _never_ make S turns and hunt. :-) I
usually have 2 "targets" in mind when I set out on each inter-thermal
glide; a primary thermal marker (or best guess) and a backup somewhere
beyond it along my course-line. I try to only slow down and hunt if I
hit bumps or other evidence of lift where I'm already expecting it at
these target-points. But sometimes I feel like I've bypassed a good
thermal along the way (perhaps better than the one I'll find at my
target area). Like I said in my earlier post, occasionally I try for
these "good bumps" - and get skunked most of the time. And the cost
of slowing down, turning a circle (even just one) for no gain, and
then speeding back up is just HUGE.

I just don't know if the "cure" is to avoid circling at all in these
situations, or if there are better ways to determine if the lift is
big enough or good enough to work without actually throwing in a
circle.

Thanks for the tip on downloading race flights/IGC files. I've been
meaning to do that, now its time I actually follow through!

Take care,

--Noel

On Oct 11, 11:30*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks all,

This may sound egotistical, but when I'm alone or with one or two
other gliders I'm pretty confident my thermaling skills are above-
average (I admit that I still need work in gaggles). *I tend to circle
a little bit faster than some folks (usually 48 - 50 knots in my
DG-300), but I turn at a tight 45 - 50 degree bank angle - never less
(narrow thermals here in the west). *Doing the math on load factors at
various bank-angles, and given my min-sink speed of about 42 knots, I
think this thermaling speed may be about right (despite some "advice"
that I should be circling slower). *The glider certainly doesn't
"groove" through the turns as well when I really try to slow it up and
fly in the mid-to-lower 40's at these bank angles. *BTW, I don't
credit my climb capabilities to talent or anything; I just got started
flying in a place where 1 - 2 knot lift was the norm, and cloudbases
are typically around 3000'. *If you want to get anywhere in those
conditions, you *cannot* miss a climb or lose a thermal!

I just got "Winning II" last night, and I'm glad to hear someone with
John's experience discount Moffat's thermal entry technique. *The
vario swings due to TE compensation and the sudden/aerobatic thermal
entry at 80+ knots seems like it would make it incredibly hard to
judge what the thermal strength truly is (in addition to the safety
issues if you rocket up farther than expected and wind up smack in the
middle of a gaggle that's already circling).

Oh, and unless I'm really low I _never_ make S turns and hunt. :-) *I
usually have 2 "targets" in mind when I set out on each inter-thermal
glide; a primary thermal marker (or best guess) and a backup somewhere
beyond it along my course-line. *I try to only slow down and hunt if I
hit bumps or other evidence of lift where I'm already expecting it at
these target-points. *But sometimes I feel like I've bypassed a good
thermal along the way (perhaps better than the one I'll find at my
target area). *Like I said in my earlier post, occasionally I try for
these "good bumps" - and get skunked most of the time. *And the cost
of slowing down, turning a circle (even just one) for no gain, and
then speeding back up is just HUGE.

I just don't know if the "cure" is to avoid circling at all in these
situations, or if there are better ways to determine if the lift is
big enough or good enough to work without actually throwing in a
circle.

Thanks for the tip on downloading race flights/IGC files. *I've been
meaning to do that, now its time I actually follow through!

Take care,

--Noel

Try this
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/think...calculator.htm

Frank

Now if BB says you need to sniff around like a dog, you need to sniff
around like a dog. He gave you a book worth of advise and it went
right over your head.
First learn the pilot, and then ask yourself the right questions. Like
why would a top racer advise to "sniff around like a dog"?
The answer to that question started 56 miles back when he started his
351 L/D leg to a location that would produce good "huntin".
And in this business, you ain't sh't unless you can "hunt".
There are four other gems he put in there that require some study.
Racing is easy. Racing good is a lucky day. Racing good consistently
is simply rare talent. To advance to must get out on course and hope
for such talent to come along to allow you draft in his magic, seeing
for yourself what can be done.
What you know now is only enough to get out on course.
R

Hi Noel

John is right on thermalling techniques.
Aerobatics are inefficient - Agreed. But if the question is - when I hit a thermal at 80kt what do I do? Then the only
way to enter the thermal will be to pull hard to slow down while you are still in the lift.

Here's a one time world champion having a difficult day.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...ghtId=43802292

Observe how Oscar looks for lift, and also how precise his flying is when he finds it.


BB wrote:
5) When to turn: This is still a big one for me. I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... *sigh*


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.


Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

At 22:33 11 October 2008, BB wrote:


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.

Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

Once again Mr Cochrane gets right to the heart of things. Copy and paste
the above to a preflight cockpit card.

That is the underlying *cause* of the top pilots being so fast - one
resultant *effect* of this is that they can afford to cruise faster, take
fewer thermals and, when it is right to do so, go lower than the likes of
me.

George Moffat's brilliant, but IMHO much misunderstood, article on low
loss flying article showed how one pilot could theoretically beat another
substantially by using various optimisations of technique. However it
often seems to be forgotten that the article was predicated on the stated
assumption that the two contest pilots were flying equally optimal routes
and climbing equally etc. For the learner a far bigger benefit comes from
flying in the right place at the right time.

John Galloway