FAA Revoking Standard Airworthiness Certificate DG-505

Hi Darryl

I know the history - was sloppy in my edit, so - Sorry to make it more confusing.

But the point was that the previous incarnation of the DG company Glaser-Dirks, sold the rights to manufacture certain
models to AMS way back in 1978.
Glaser Dirks went into insolvency in 1996 when they got into production problems with the 800B. Subsequently Mr Wolf and
Mr and Mrs Weber purchased the assets, with basically no operational interruption.
It was not wound up though - so Glaser Dirks and the current DG Flugzeugbau have commercial continuity.

I am sure this is a problem for the current DG which has to honour arrangements made in 1978, to try to protect their
brand - which is the only reason I can see them being prepared to help.

For what it is worth the other two big manufacturers also made versions of this mistake.
Schempp-hirth has problems with license built Std Cirrus aircraft. They at least sold the design and had a clean
separation from the new manufacture. However - certification problems are cropping up now that Grob is in insolvency.
Schleicher have smaller problems with the Pegase which is a derivative of the ASW20, but is at least different enough
that they are distanced from the problems.

Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 19, 3:06 am, Bruce wrote:
The "individual" posting from Germany, is the owner of Glaser Dirks. I would say that indicates a willingness to support
the brand even when the aircraft in question is not one Glaser Dirks built.

Particularly since , as he pointed ,out the aircraft in question is built by an unrelated company that purchased the
rights and moulds for the design. DGs only interest in this is some reputational risk, because the aircraft built by AMS
are recognised as DG designs. Apparently Mr Weber is prepared to go to a lot of trouble to help.

SNIP

On Oct 19, 10:47*pm, Bruce wrote:
snip
Schleicher have smaller problems with the Pegase which is a derivative of the ASW20, but is at least different enough
that they are distanced from the problems.

snip

Interesting - I never thought Schleicher had anything to do with the
Pegase once they had sorted out the original problems over Centrair
effectively stealing their designs and so on. Could you illuminate me
please, as I own a Pegase!

On Oct 19, 11:54*pm, Cats wrote:
On Oct 19, 10:47*pm, Bruce wrote:
snip

Schleicher have smaller problems with the Pegase which is a derivative of the ASW20, but is at least different enough
that they are distanced from the problems.

snip

Interesting - I never thought Schleicher had anything to do with the
Pegase once they had sorted out the original problems over Centrair
effectively stealing their designs and so on. *Could you illuminate me
please, as I own a Pegase!

And I think more an ASW-19 clone than an ASW-20, but I know not
exactly an ASW-19.

Darryl

Cats wrote:
On Oct 19, 10:47*pm, Bruce wrote:
snip
Schleicher have smaller problems with the Pegase which is a derivative of the ASW20, but is at least different enough
that they are distanced from the problems.

snip

Interesting - I never thought Schleicher had anything to do with the
Pegase once they had sorted out the original problems over Centrair
effectively stealing their designs and so on. Could you illuminate me
please, as I own a Pegase!

Does "effectively stealing" means no stealing at all? Schleicher has
nothing to do with the Pegasus. Strange as such lies are long living.


--

Michel TALON

On 20 Oct, 09:01, (Michel Talon) wrote:

Does "effectively stealing" means no stealing at all? Schleicher has
nothing to do with the Pegasus. Strange as such lies are long living.

I thought the Pegase fuselage was a direct copy of the ASW-19 - easily
done, since Centrair were building the ASW-19F at the time. Then to
add insult to injury they gave the Pegase a better wing than the
ASW-19 had ...

Ian

On Oct 20, 10:45*am, Ian wrote:
On 20 Oct, 09:01, (Michel Talon) wrote:

Does "effectively stealing" means no stealing at all? Schleicher has
nothing to do with the Pegasus. Strange as such lies are long living.

I thought the Pegase fuselage was a direct copy of the ASW-19 - easily
done, since Centrair were building the ASW-19F at the time. Then to
add insult to injury they gave the Pegase a better wing than the
ASW-19 had ...


That's my understanding - and I also thought the ASW19 & ASW20 had
almost identical fuselages. But I also thought it was all sorted out
20 years ago or so, and there was nothing ongoing.

On 20 Oct, 10:59, Cats wrote:
On Oct 20, 10:45*am, Ian wrote:

On 20 Oct, 09:01, (Michel Talon) wrote:

Does "effectively stealing" means no stealing at all? Schleicher has
nothing to do with the Pegasus. Strange as such lies are long living.

I thought the Pegase fuselage was a direct copy of the ASW-19 - easily
done, since Centrair were building the ASW-19F at the time. Then to
add insult to injury they gave the Pegase a better wing than the
ASW-19 had ...

That's my understanding - and I also thought the ASW19 & ASW20 had
almost identical fuselages. *But I also thought it was all sorted out
20 years ago or so, and there was nothing ongoing.

An ASW-20 is more-or-less just a flapped ASW-19, isn't it? I, too, had
the impression that the Schleicher-Centrair fight was settled years
ago ... but I'd be very surprised indeed if Schleicher had any
responsibility at all for Pegase airworthiness issues.

Ian

PS Wikipedia suggests that the Pegase uses the ASW-20 fuselage.

On Oct 20, 12:16*pm, Ian wrote:
snip

PS Wikipedia suggests that the Pegase uses the ASW-20 fuselage.

Wikipedia also suggests:

"The ASW 20 is an FAI 15 metre Class glider designed by Gerhard Waibel
and built by Alexander Schleicher GmbH & Co. Its fuselage is nearly
identical to the ASW19's, mated to newly designed wings for the 15
metre Class."

So I suspect the three gliders are all very similar in most of the
fuselage.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:59:28 -0700, Cats wrote:


That's my understanding - and I also thought the ASW19 & ASW20 had
almost identical fuselages. But I also thought it was all sorted out 20
years ago or so, and there was nothing ongoing.

Centrair were building the ASW-20 under license, not the ASW-19. All
ASW-20Fs were built by Centrair. The Pegase fuselage is almost identical
to the 20: the boom is slightly bigger diameter (an ASW-20 tail dolly
won't quite fit a Pegase) and the underwing cockpit vent intakes on the
20 were blocked and replaced by a nose intake. If you look carefully at a
Pegase you can just see where the the 20's intakes were by looking for
waviness in reflections off the gelcoat.

I believe that the 19 and 20 have almost identical fuselages - probably
the biggest difference between all three are the wing roots, since all
three gliders have different wing sections.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 20 Oct, 12:36, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:59:28 -0700, Cats wrote:

That's my understanding - and I also thought the ASW19 & ASW20 had
almost identical fuselages. *But I also thought it was all sorted out 20
years ago or so, and there was nothing ongoing.

Centrair were building the ASW-20 under license, not the ASW-19. All
ASW-20Fs were built by Centrair. The Pegase fuselage is almost identical
to the 20: the boom is slightly bigger diameter (an ASW-20 tail dolly
won't quite fit a Pegase) ...

I'm pretty sure that when I was flying at Le Blanc we used tail
dollies interchangeably between Pegases and ASW-20s. Of course, they
might all have been Pegase ones, on reflection ...

Ian