Glider Insurance, which to choose?

On Nov 4, 8:59*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Nov 4, 8:27*am, 5Z wrote:



On Nov 4, 7:00*am, Gregg Ballou wrote:

On trailer insurance my open trailer is insured through Geico for chump
change per year. *Told them what it was and what it was for. * Don't know
how much they would charge for a new Cobra but calling your car insurance
company might help with the cost of trailer insurance.

This only works if the auto insurer will cover it for REPLACEMENT
value. *A brand new Cobra trailer will run around $15K. *If the
insurance company decides to depreciate it at the same rate as a car,
you're going to wish you did pay that $100/yr to bundle it in with the
sailplane.

-Tom
Disclaimer: *All numbers above are "off the cuff", so may be out of
date.

My single axle 18m Cobra trailer cost ~$17k (at today's exchange rate)
two years ago, plus you have to pay to deliver it from the factory to
the port, shipping to the USA, insurance en-route, pickup from the
port of you are paying somebody to do that, etc. So add another few $k
for all that. And I assume Cobra prices have gone up a little since
the. Is there a lot of tow-out/rigging gear? maybe another $k for
that? Lets call it low $20k for replacement cost. I'm guessing a 15m
Cobra trailer well optioned, delivered etc. will be ~$18k?

Darryl

mmm another thought, I assume the aviation insurers will pick up any
state sales tax. I believe it's a state by state thing as to how
exactly this is handled (it is for cars). Something to ask next time I
renew, and that Costello invoice is lurking in my in-box.

Ditto, with Tom, I always thought the trailer insurance with the
glider through Costello was a pretty good deal.

Darryl

Getting back to the original questions:

I've used both Costello (for my Russia AC-4) and Avemco (for my
DG-300). I'm a 100-hour glider pilot with an SEL rating (about 200
hours TT).

Costello was decent for my Russia, but they require full payment in
advance and came across as very limited in terms of options or
flexibility. Costello also now balks at "winter storage" or "non-
flying status". I tried to work that out with them when I bought my
DG-300, and was told that I could not switch over to this kind of
coverage for any shorter than a 1-year term. :-/

Avemco has been a bit more pleasant to work with, IMHO. They were
more flexible (multiple payment and coverage options), and provided a
slightly lower quote than Costello for my DG-300. They provided a
pleasant surprise, too: there was a SNAFU with my paperwork (USPS),
and when it finally went through I'd racked up a few more hours of
glider-time - pushing me across the "150-hours TT" threshold. They
called to confirm everything, and when they found out about my added
time, they applied it to my account and lowered my premium. It wasn't
a big change, but it was a nice surprise!

There is a caveat with Avemco, though: They are primarily focused on
powered airplanes, and their policy is not to insure any aircraft that
they don't have on their master list - so they can't provide coverage
for some of the lesser-known models of glider (like my AC-4). However
they do seem savvy about the major brands and models, and they seemed
to understand the insurance needs of a glider pilot (trailer, towing,
etc) just fine.

I have never had to file a claim with either company so I can't
comment on that side of things; but I know of a Discus owner and
another DG owner who also have Avemco and are pleased with their
coverage and service.

I think the bottom-line is that you should always shop around and then
decide for yourself which company provides the best _combination_ of
coverage, service, and price.

Good luck,

--Noel

I had Costello for a few years and switched to L.L.Johns & Associates
when I upgraded to a different ship. L.L.Johns is easier to work with
and about $150 cheaper. L.L.J. assumes a winter layup in their quote
and doesn't make you pick dates for layup and back-to-flying like
Costello does. At Costello, if you change your layup date, it costs
you $75. The Costello date-picking also makes you maximize the down
time to minimize the policy cost. The folks at Costello are certainly
very nice friendly people, I just prefer the flexibility of
L.L.Johns. Both use AIG to underwrite the policy, I called and asked
last month due to the news.

Having shopped around for insurance and held policies with several
different insurers, for several different aircraft, I have found that
Costello is currently the best in terms of price, coverage, and
flexability. I've had Avemco and Pik West but Costello saved me the
most. I also had no trouble placing it in "winter storage" for four
months. With Costello, you have to state the exact dates you want to
have the glider in non operative flight status. They then send you a
refund on your premium. If you wish to fly your plane sooner than when
you anticipated, it's $50.00 to re-instate your policy and you have to
pay your regular premium for the dates of coverage. As you have more
years of claims free experience with them, the rates drop to a maximun
of 25%.

If I remember correctly, the number of flights and/or hours you have
in 35:1 has quite an impact on your premium. The ASW-15 is probably
considered around that performance. Also if you hit 70+ yrs of age,
you take a hit on the premium. Personally, I found it was worth
having the trailer on the policy.

I'm not an insurance guy but just a regular consumer who has shopped
around for a few decades.

Barry

Note: I tried to get coverage from LL John's and they seemed to be
very friendly, but they can only provide coverage in certain states.
Sadly, my state is not one of them. :-P

As you can see from the various posts, there's no substitute to
calling around and finding the insurer that works best for your
particular situation.

Good luck!

--Noel

On Nov 4, 12:38*pm, drbdanieli wrote:
Having shopped around for insurance and held policies with several
different insurers, for several different aircraft, I have found that
Costello is currently the best in terms of price, coverage, and
flexability. *I've had Avemco and Pik West but Costello saved me the
most. *I also had no trouble placing it in "winter storage" for four
months. *With Costello, you have to state the exact dates you want to
have the glider in non operative flight status. *They then send you a
refund on your premium. If you wish to fly your plane sooner than when
you anticipated, it's $50.00 to re-instate your policy and you have to
pay your regular premium for the dates of coverage. As you have more
years of claims free experience with them, the rates drop to a maximun
of 25%.

If I remember correctly, the number of flights and/or hours you have
in 35:1 has quite an impact on your premium. *The ASW-15 is probably
considered around that performance. *Also if you hit 70+ yrs of age,
you take a hit on the premium. *Personally, I found it was worth
having the trailer on the policy.

I'm not an insurance guy but just a regular consumer who has shopped
around for a few decades.

Barry

I'm not sure about the other plans, but your flying (in-motion) hull
coverage is the equivalent of renter/non-owner insurance up to your
hull limits under Costello. However, if you put it on winter lay-up
(ground only), you lose this protection during that period. Some
clubs have high deductibles for operating club gliders and encourage
members to have renter/non-owner coverage. A few clubs and commercial
self-insure their hulls and rely on the pilots carrying such
coverage.. I believe USAIG dropped this type of coverage 2-3 years
ago.

Frank Whiteley

At 20:10 04 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:

I'm not sure about the other plans, but your flying (in-motion) hull
coverage is the equivalent of renter/non-owner insurance up to your
hull limits under Costello. However, if you put it on winter lay-up
(ground only), you lose this protection during that period. Some
clubs have high deductibles for operating club gliders and encourage
members to have renter/non-owner coverage.

I'm no expert on insurance, but this issue has been discussed
in our club, and I don't think it works the way you are describing.
The problem is, at least for clubs, that each individual member
is, in fact, an owner of the club gliders. So renter insurance
isn't going to help you at all. In the case where your own
glider and the club gliders are both insured by Costello, I
have no idea what rules would apply.

Anybody who understands the situation better, feel free
to correct me. I wouldn't like people to assume coverage
and then find out when it's too late that it doesn't apply.

Jim Beckman

On Nov 4, 2:15*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 20:10 04 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:



I'm not sure about the other plans, but your flying (in-motion) hull
coverage is the equivalent of renter/non-owner insurance up to your
hull limits under Costello. *However, if you put it on winter lay-up
(ground only), you lose this protection during that period. * Some
clubs have high deductibles for operating club gliders and encourage
members to have renter/non-owner coverage.

I'm no expert on insurance, but this issue has been discussed
in our club, and I don't think it works the way you are describing.
The problem is, at least for clubs, that each individual member
is, in fact, an owner of the club gliders. *So renter insurance
isn't going to help you at all. *In the case where your own
glider and the club gliders are both insured by Costello, I
have no idea what rules would apply.

Anybody who understands the situation better, feel free
to correct me. *I wouldn't like people to assume coverage
and then find out when it's too late that it doesn't apply.

Jim Beckman

Jim, in our club we totaled an L-13 when everything but the tailwheel
got over the fence. The owner had renters and the club is getting the
money from the member's policy. The member (a CFIG) will be back
flying next season.

On Nov 4, 3:15*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 20:10 04 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:



I'm not sure about the other plans, but your flying (in-motion) hull
coverage is the equivalent of renter/non-owner insurance up to your
hull limits under Costello. *However, if you put it on winter lay-up
(ground only), you lose this protection during that period. * Some
clubs have high deductibles for operating club gliders and encourage
members to have renter/non-owner coverage.

I'm no expert on insurance, but this issue has been discussed
in our club, and I don't think it works the way you are describing.
The problem is, at least for clubs, that each individual member
is, in fact, an owner of the club gliders. *So renter insurance
isn't going to help you at all. *In the case where your own
glider and the club gliders are both insured by Costello, I
have no idea what rules would apply.

Anybody who understands the situation better, feel free
to correct me. *I wouldn't like people to assume coverage
and then find out when it's too late that it doesn't apply.

Jim Beckman

That's why I mentioned 'some' clubs. There are about 134 flying SSA
chapter clubs, a few non-SSA chapter clubs, and perhaps 20 private
ownership 'clubs' dotted around the US. These are subject to a state
statutes governing their incorporation and federal rules regarding
their tax status and their organizing documents. The majority of the
clubs have had an IRS determination at some point. A growing number
have received a 501c(3) determination, which means they can accept
charitable donations. A fundamental tenant of charitable non-profit
organization is the avoidance of 'private inurement' on the part of
any member. This means no one can derive any private benefit. It
does not mean that members cannot be contracted for services, but
there are strict rules for accomplishing this. A requirement for a
501c(3) is that upon dissolution, assets must be distributed to a like
organization. It would be a stretch to hold a member as a partial
owner as there are no rights of to benefit from the sale or rights of
conveyance. Of course, this really depends on the base organization.

Example 1: Texas Soaring Association. Note: All members are
personally liable for the first $3,000 of damage to TSA equipment.
http://www.texassoaring.org/Documents/tsf23.pdf Damage responsibility
http://www.texassoaring.org/Document...ops_manual.pdf See page
64. I've discussed this with officers of TSA and they said that non-
owner/rental insurance is encouraged. TSA is a 501c(3) nonprofit
organization and no rights of ownership are conveyed in the governing
documents, in fact, they are denied. In this case, non-owner/renter
coverage appears appropriate. Of course, in exchange for cheaper cost
of entry and dues, they may be passing on extended costs to some
members.

Example 2: Caesar Creek Soaring Club is an Ohio non-profit, with no
IRS determination. The entity owns no assets. Each 'Member' agrees
to purchase 12 shares in the Soaring Society of Dayton, which owns the
gliderport and equipment and is an Ohio corporation. 4000 shares in
SSD have been issued. Other membership types are not required to own
shares. This clearly defines 'Members' as owners. They also have a
system of differential dues and time purchase of the shares at a
monthly rate and an annual surcharge of 10% if less than 12 shares are
currently owned. In this case, non-owner/rental coverage, by
definition, likely does not apply.

Of the 160-odd clubs that may be operating in the US, there are likely
165 business models, depending upon who is asked;^). Insurance
exposure varies and definitive guidance should be sought from the
brokers and underwriters providing the services. These are important
issues and organizations should fully understand how the boundaries we
operate within; insurance, FAA rules, state and federal statutes,
governing documents, and member considerations, are best leveraged.

As always YMMV,

Frank Whiteley

On Nov 4, 7:41*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Nov 4, 3:15*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:



At 20:10 04 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:

I'm not sure about the other plans, but your flying (in-motion) hull
coverage is the equivalent of renter/non-owner insurance up to your
hull limits under Costello. *However, if you put it on winter lay-up
(ground only), you lose this protection during that period. * Some
clubs have high deductibles for operating club gliders and encourage
members to have renter/non-owner coverage.

I'm no expert on insurance, but this issue has been discussed
in our club, and I don't think it works the way you are describing.
The problem is, at least for clubs, that each individual member
is, in fact, an owner of the club gliders. *So renter insurance
isn't going to help you at all. *In the case where your own
glider and the club gliders are both insured by Costello, I
have no idea what rules would apply.

Anybody who understands the situation better, feel free
to correct me. *I wouldn't like people to assume coverage
and then find out when it's too late that it doesn't apply.

Jim Beckman

That's why I mentioned 'some' clubs. *There are about 134 flying SSA
chapter clubs, a few non-SSA chapter clubs, and perhaps 20 private
ownership 'clubs' dotted around the US. *These are subject to a state
statutes governing their incorporation and federal rules regarding
their tax status and their organizing documents. *The majority of the
clubs have had an IRS determination at some point. *A growing number
have received a 501c(3) determination, which means they can accept
charitable donations. *A fundamental tenant of charitable non-profit
organization is the avoidance of 'private inurement' on the part of
any member. *This means no one can derive any private benefit. *It
does not mean that members cannot be contracted for services, but
there are strict rules for accomplishing this. *A requirement for a
501c(3) is that upon dissolution, assets must be distributed to a like
organization. *It would be a stretch to hold a member as a partial
owner as there are no rights of to benefit from the sale or rights of
conveyance. *Of course, this really depends on the base organization.

Example 1: *Texas Soaring Association. Note: All members are
personally liable for the first $3,000 of damage to TSA equipment.http://www.texassoaring.org/Documents/tsf23.pdf*Damage responsibilityhttp://www.texassoaring.org/Documents/tsb6b_ops_manual.pdfSee page
64. *I've discussed this with officers of TSA and they said that non-
owner/rental insurance is encouraged. *TSA is a 501c(3) nonprofit
organization and no rights of ownership are conveyed in the governing
documents, in fact, they are denied. *In this case, non-owner/renter
coverage appears appropriate. *Of course, in exchange for cheaper cost
of entry and dues, they may be passing on extended costs to some
members.

Example 2: *Caesar Creek Soaring Club is an Ohio non-profit, with no
IRS determination. *The entity owns no assets. *Each 'Member' *agrees
to purchase 12 shares in the Soaring Society of Dayton, which owns the
gliderport and equipment and is an Ohio corporation. *4000 shares in
SSD have been issued. *Other membership types are not required to own
shares. *This clearly defines 'Members' as owners. *They also have a
system of differential dues and time purchase of the shares at a
monthly rate and an annual surcharge of 10% if less than 12 shares are
currently owned. *In this case, non-owner/rental coverage, by
definition, likely does not apply.

Of the 160-odd clubs that may be operating in the US, there are likely
165 business models, depending upon who is asked;^). *Insurance
exposure varies and definitive guidance should be sought from the
brokers and underwriters providing the services. *These are important
issues and organizations should fully understand how the boundaries we
operate within; insurance, FAA rules, state and federal statutes,
governing documents, and member considerations, are best leveraged.

As always YMMV,

Frank Whiteley

Re Example 1: Last time I checked, TSA did not carry hull insurance
on club gliders. Ditto this club http://www.flybasa.org/, a 501c(7)
with two member categories; sponsor and associate.

Frank