Parachute 20 year limit

wrote:
What is this about round vs ram/square? I thought it was generally
accepted that ram/square give more control and lower descent rates,
but are less suitable for glider emergency chutes because they work
reliably only if you are the right way up etc. when you pull them.

Be sure to select a canopy type and size the matches your weight. Check
the manufacturer's charts or talk to them. I bought a Softie sized so I
was at the bottom end of it's weight range, giving me an impact speed
about like jumping off a table.

The wind and terrain will make a much bigger difference in your landing
the difference in descent rate between properly sized round or square
parachutes. A soft landing is likely important for someone doing 10 or
20 jumps a day, but not for emergency use.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Parachute capacities and sizes and technologies are somewhat misunderstood
and subject to some interpretation. Newer designs are far more efficient
than older designs and even a 200 + pound pilot will be far better off
wearing a parachute that fits with him in his glider than a big bulky one he
leaves in the clubhouse because he can't fit into his already over gross
cockpit.
For an example, some 24 foot canopies have larger volumes and some 26 foot
canopies and so on...there are also different canopy designs that produce
different flight performances. Some manufacturers have more conservative or
optimistic ratings published. We can only use the data that is available to
us and a little common sense to determine what we are comfortable with, but
when you see a manufacturer recommending a very small canopy with a very
high capacity and another with a larger canopy with a far more conservative
recommendation you should also question for yourself how much of this is
sales pitch and how much is an absolute commitment to safety. Ask the
manufacturer if he has actually used his own rigs, how much does he weigh
and which models he would feel comfortable with offering to his fiancé or
his x-wife! )
tim


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
wrote:
What is this about round vs ram/square? I thought it was generally
accepted that ram/square give more control and lower descent rates,
but are less suitable for glider emergency chutes because they work
reliably only if you are the right way up etc. when you pull them.

Be sure to select a canopy type and size the matches your weight. Check
the manufacturer's charts or talk to them. I bought a Softie sized so I
was at the bottom end of it's weight range, giving me an impact speed
about like jumping off a table.

The wind and terrain will make a much bigger difference in your landing
the difference in descent rate between properly sized round or square
parachutes. A soft landing is likely important for someone doing 10 or 20
jumps a day, but not for emergency use.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 5, 6:33*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

The wind and terrain will make a much bigger difference in your landing
the difference in descent rate between properly sized round or square
parachutes. A soft landing is likely important for someone doing 10 or
20 jumps a day, but not for emergency use.

I have made only about 60 jumps but all of them in the last 10 years
and all of them with low loading ram air chutes. The significant
difference between the ram air canopy and the round canopy is not just
sink rate. A ram air parachute has forward velocity and when it is
turned it goes in a different direction. A round parachute has very
little forward velocity and when steered just points in a different
direction but continues to go in the same direction - downwind.

Although a properly flared ram air chute has a lower touchdown sink
rate than a round, it's main advantage for emergency use may be that
the pilot can have some choice as to the landing location.

I still fly with a round but its over 20 years old. If I have to buy
a new chute I would seriously consider getting a ram air canopy.

Andy

Andy wrote:
On Dec 5, 6:33 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The wind and terrain will make a much bigger difference in your landing
the difference in descent rate between properly sized round or square
parachutes. A soft landing is likely important for someone doing 10 or
20 jumps a day, but not for emergency use.

I have made only about 60 jumps but all of them in the last 10 years
and all of them with low loading ram air chutes. The significant
difference between the ram air canopy and the round canopy is not just
sink rate. A ram air parachute has forward velocity and when it is
turned it goes in a different direction. A round parachute has very
little forward velocity

3 to 5 mph, according to my Softie manual.

and when steered just points in a different
direction but continues to go in the same direction - downwind.

Although a properly flared ram air chute has a lower touchdown sink
rate than a round, it's main advantage for emergency use may be that
the pilot can have some choice as to the landing location.

I still fly with a round but its over 20 years old. If I have to buy
a new chute I would seriously consider getting a ram air canopy.

My observation over 30 years of soaring is the round emergency parachute
works remarkably well for glider pilots. If the pilot gets out, he gets
down safely. I can't remember any glider pilot being seriously injured,
with the possible exception of the pilot of the glider that broke up in
wave near Minden a few years ago (surface winds were about 50 mph when
he landed).

Does anyone remember incidents where the pilot was seriously injured?

Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by a
pilot with no jump training, would have significantly improved the outcome?

Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by an
experienced ram air parachutist, would have significantly improved the
outcome?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Does anyone remember incidents where the pilot was seriously injured?
Don't know of any. But I wouldn't be surprised. Given the average
age of glider pilots they need all the help they can get not having to
heal.
Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by a
pilot with no jump training, would have significantly improved the
outcome?
Not enough events to draw from. Pilot rigs with squares are new(square
reserves have been around 20 years) and it's likely the early adopters
are mostly former jumpers.
Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by an

experienced ram air parachutist, would have significantly improved the
outcome?
If you count skydivers using square reserves then lots. With (I'm
guessing)1-2 glider bailouts worldwide per year we don't have the number
of incidents to draw from.
My position is that if someone is in the market for a new parachute and
the price difference isn't a deal breaker then a square is the sensible
choice.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at
www.motorglider.org

Gregg Ballou wrote:
Does anyone remember incidents where the pilot was seriously injured?
Don't know of any. But I wouldn't be surprised. Given the average
age of glider pilots they need all the help they can get not having to
heal.
Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by a
pilot with no jump training, would have significantly improved the
outcome?
Not enough events to draw from. Pilot rigs with squares are new(square
reserves have been around 20 years) and it's likely the early adopters
are mostly former jumpers.
Does anyone know of an incident(s) where a ram air parachute, used by an

experienced ram air parachutist, would have significantly improved the
outcome?
If you count skydivers using square reserves then lots.
With (I'm
guessing)1-2 glider bailouts worldwide per year we don't have the number
of incidents to draw from.

I'm talking about glider pilots using round emergency parachutes in an
emergency: do we know of any incident(s) where using "detuned" ram air
parachute instead of the round one might have significantly affected the
outcome, positively or negatively?

My position is that if someone is in the market for a new parachute and
the price difference isn't a deal breaker then a square is the sensible
choice.

My position is there is no evidence the untrained glider pilot will be
better off, and some chance the pilot might actually be worse off. So
far, the evidence I'm aware of (USA only - not familiar with overseas),
is that the round emergency does a good job, even with pilots that
haven't jumped before and have no real training.

I have no qualms about experienced jumpers using ram air parachutes in a
glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

snip My position is there is no evidence the untrained glider pilot
will be
better off, and some chance the pilot might actually be worse off. /
snip

Eric,

There is no such thing as an untrained glider pilot (one with a
license, of course) -- a ram-air parachute *is* a glider. Emergency
ram-air chutes are extremely docile and easy to use. Pull the left
handle to go left. Pull the right to go right. Pull both gently when
approaching the ground if you want to flare it (which is not mandatory
for a safe touchdown).

I fly mostly in the southwest, where the landscape can be most
unfriendly to someone under a round parachute instead of a square.
(The first is a passenger, the latter a pilot.) I don't want to
survive a mid-air or glider breakup only to land in trees, canyons,
power lines or water.

Definitely consider a square emergency chute if you are ever in the
market for a new one. And if you live near a skydiving center, go make
a tandem jump and see just how easy it is.

~ted/2NO

Tuno wrote:
snip My position is there is no evidence the untrained glider pilot
will be
better off, and some chance the pilot might actually be worse off. /
snip

Eric,

There is no such thing as an untrained glider pilot (one with a
license, of course) -- a ram-air parachute *is* a glider. Emergency
ram-air chutes are extremely docile and easy to use.

That was not what I read on the websites of companies selling them, or
what I was told by a couple manufacturers of parachutes. They seemed
very sincere.

Pull the left
handle to go left. Pull the right to go right. Pull both gently when
approaching the ground if you want to flare it (which is not mandatory
for a safe touchdown).

Except for the flare part, isn't that how a round emergency works? How
fast is the ram-air emergency parachute? I'm told my Softie has about 5
mph forward speed and about 10 seconds to do a 360 degree turn, which
seems agile enough.

I fly mostly in the southwest, where the landscape can be most
unfriendly to someone under a round parachute instead of a square.
(The first is a passenger, the latter a pilot.) I don't want to
survive a mid-air or glider breakup only to land in trees, canyons,
power lines or water.

There are hazards everywhere, yet it seems if the pilot gets out (in
time), he survives, usually without any injury.

Definitely consider a square emergency chute if you are ever in the
market for a new one. And if you live near a skydiving center, go make
a tandem jump and see just how easy it is.

Too late! Bought a new Softie in March. I decided the potential
advantage of the ram-air was miniscule, and chance of mis-handling it
one way or the other was higher than miniscule. As far a tandem jump, I
decided the risk of that outweighed the fun and knowledge I'd get out it.

So far, 33 years, 6000 hours soaring, no jumps required. With luck and
good health, I'll be extremely annoyed in 20 years because no one will
repack my chute, and I have to buy a new one.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 6, 5:31*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Does anyone remember incidents where the pilot was seriously injured?

April 1982 Tulare, California. Pilot baled out after a midair and
died on impact with the ground. It was my first contest.

Andy

At 13:41 07 December 2008, Andy wrote:
On Dec 6, 5:31=A0pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Does anyone remember incidents where the pilot was seriously injured?

April 1982 Tulare, California. Pilot baled out after a midair and
died on impact with the ground. It was my first contest.

Andy
Impact with an open parachute?