[OT] USA - TSA Obstructing Armed Pilots?

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Mike
Marron blurted out:

I've been following this thread with interest and was just curious as
to exactly what constitutes a "security clearance." Can't you even
provide us with a vague, thumbnail sketch of what a top secret
security clearance is?

Law Enforcement (military and civil) check out your background...you
interview...short time later you're given access to material higher up
the "classification food chain."

With family flying down to visit over the holidays, my darling wife is
all worried about their safety due to the raised threat-level from
Arab terrorists.

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now. I
asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

I can certainly understand why guys like you and Ed
aren't interested in discussing the in's and out's of the security
clearance mechanism, but again, since the topic was brought up
can't either of you briefly explain what a security clearance is and
why it's so important? Again, just asking and please pardon my
ignorance.

I don't think the issue of a top secret security clearance is the
point, rather here are guys that formerly were "trusted agents" that
are not simply rubber stamped for acceptance in the FFDO program.

Currently over 1000 FFDOs (airline pilots with guns) by the end of
2004 over 5000...not too shabby.

Juvat

Juvat wrote in
:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Mike
Marron blurted out:

I've been following this thread with interest and was just curious as
to exactly what constitutes a "security clearance." Can't you even
provide us with a vague, thumbnail sketch of what a top secret
security clearance is?

Law Enforcement (military and civil) check out your background...you
interview...short time later you're given access to material higher up
the "classification food chain."

It's a judgement about trustworthyness.If one can trust a military pilot
with a security clearance(and to carry a gun while flying a military
plane),why must they be psychologically tested AGAIN for being armed in a
commercial plane? Especially when they already undergo regular psy testing
to maintain their commercial flight status.

If they are stable enough to pilot a plane full of passengers,why would
they NOT be stable enough to carry a firearm? (on a commercial plane)

Conversely,if a pilot is not judged stable enough to be armed while aboard
a commercial plane,are they stable/reliable enough to perform the job of
pilot if unarmed?

Fail that extra psy-test,and there goes your livelihood.
If not,please explain why.


The extra psy test is just a way of 1;scaring off interested pilots,2;an
added obstruction solely for the purpose of limiting the number of FFDOs.



With family flying down to visit over the holidays, my darling wife is
all worried about their safety due to the raised threat-level from
Arab terrorists.

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now. I
asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

Except there's not enough Sky Marshals to put even ONE on every daily US
flight,not considering international flights.And standard practice is TWO
Marshals per flight.Chances are better that a flight has NO Marshals
aboard.
BTW,I believe one is not supposed to be able to tell who the Marshals are
on a flight.






--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Jim Yanik
blurted out:

It's a judgement about trustworthyness.If one can trust a military pilot
with a security clearance(and to carry a gun while flying a military
plane),why must they be psychologically tested AGAIN for being armed in a
commercial plane?

Why? Don't have an answer.

Especially when they already undergo regular psy testing
to maintain their commercial flight status.

That is NOT the case in the US. For a fact there are (and have been)
airline pilots that have a habit of no getting along well with the
other pilot(s) in the cockpit. 12 years ago one former co-worker was
sent to the Mayo clinic after I removed myself from the trip (he was
an insecure little ****)...I was the 4th guy in less than six months
to get off a trip with him. The Mayo clinic shrink's report said, "Yep
he's an asshole." This guy kept his job for another 10 years after
repeated trips to the Mayo he was finally diagnosed with Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder...pffffttt...he's outta here finally.

Or how about the Captain that was a former police officer, this guy
picks fights at layover hotels if he thinks too much noise is coming
from adjoining rooms.

If they are stable enough to pilot a plane full of passengers,why would
they NOT be stable enough to carry a firearm? (on a commercial plane)

See my two examples above.

Conversely,if a pilot is not judged stable enough to be armed while aboard
a commercial plane,are they stable/reliable enough to perform the job of
pilot if unarmed?

Fail that extra psy-test,and there goes your livelihood.
If not,please explain why.

Again we do not go through routine psych re-screening.

The extra psy test is just a way of 1;scaring off interested pilots,2;an
added obstruction solely for the purpose of limiting the number of FFDOs.

Some guys don't like guns. Some guys don't want to deal with the
hassles of securing their weapon in various circumstances. I have not
heard from a single guy that he was afraid of ANY psych screening.
Doesn't mean there aren't cases out there.

Except there's not enough Sky Marshals to put even ONE on every daily US
flight,not considering international flights.And standard practice is TWO
Marshals per flight.Chances are better that a flight has NO Marshals
aboard.

Think about it...not every single flight is a probable target. But
I've flown with lots of FAMs, especially if there are gentlemen of
arab persuasion on the flight. And now days LEOs (Law Enforcement
Officers) on vacation with their families are packing heat. As I
posted previously...lots of guys with guns on airplanes.

BTW,I believe one is not supposed to be able to tell who the Marshals are
on a flight.

"One" being a passenger...correct, "one" being a flight
crew...incorrect.

Juvat

Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

With family flying down to visit over the holidays, my darling wife is
all worried about their safety due to the raised threat-level from
Arab terrorists.

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

I can certainly understand why guys like you and Ed
aren't interested in discussing the in's and out's of the security
clearance mechanism, but again, since the topic was brought up
can't either of you briefly explain what a security clearance is and
why it's so important? Again, just asking and please pardon my
ignorance.

I don't think the issue of a top secret security clearance is the
point, rather here are guys that formerly were "trusted agents" that
are not simply rubber stamped for acceptance in the FFDO program.

Currently over 1000 FFDOs (airline pilots with guns) by the end of
2004 over 5000...not too shabby.

Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Juvat

Semper foo fi foe fum...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:03:54 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

With family flying down to visit over the holidays, my darling wife is
all worried about their safety due to the raised threat-level from
Arab terrorists.

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

Well, if the choice is giving in to an asshole with a box cutter or
having a shootout at FL 340, what do you think is the better choice.
And, BTW, despite what you've seen in the movies, bulletholes in
pressurized cockpits don't result in structural failures or even rapid
decompressions.


Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

Juvat

Semper foo fi foe fum...

Don't ridicule Juvats or Marines. It's very poor taste.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

Ouh Rah! (sp?)

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

OK., But just who is this "Juvat" on RAM whose so obsessed with
"exhausting sessions" and "blurting out" and "Victoria's Secret?"

Nevermind Victoria's Secret (who ain't obsessed?) but you get my
drift, no?

asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

Well, if the choice is giving in to an asshole with a box cutter or
having a shootout at FL 340, what do you think is the better choice.

Agreed (again, it's my WIFE whose all worried -- not me).

And, BTW, despite what you've seen in the movies, bulletholes in
pressurized cockpits don't result in structural failures or even rapid
decompressions.

Thank Gawd my poor wife just went to bed so she won't be having
any nightmares over any "bulletholes in pressurized cockpits!"

Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

If Juvat told your wife that she's safe flying on airliners these
days due to "LOTS OF GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AIRLINERS
RIGHT NOW" would she think through the problem?

Juvat

Semper foo fi foe fum...

Don't ridicule Juvats or Marines. It's very poor taste.

Fresh Stone Crab, anyone?



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:57:03 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!

Well, I didn't say "lots of guys with GUNS...", Juvat did. But as
someone who has carried for the past twenty years (and had a CCW for
the last nine), I'm a strong believer that we are safer with more
honest citizens armed than in those communities that have strong gun
control laws--like NY City, Washington DC, Chicago, LA, etc.

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

Ouh Rah! (sp?)

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

OK., But just who is this "Juvat" on RAM whose so obsessed with
"exhausting sessions" and "blurting out" and "Victoria's Secret?"

Nevermind Victoria's Secret (who ain't obsessed?) but you get my
drift, no?

Actually no. The creative "you wrote" version as a quote leader
doesn't degrade the message any more than a creative sig. I'm not a
Juvat, but know a lot of them. It took me less than thirty seconds to
find what "juvat" means through Google.

Juvat on RAM is a former AF fighter type now flying with the airlines.
As such I (and you as well) have seen his posts regularly and should
recognize him as one of those who makes a meaningful contribution from
a position of experience.


Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

If Juvat told your wife that she's safe flying on airliners these
days due to "LOTS OF GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AIRLINERS
RIGHT NOW" would she think through the problem?

Actually, my wife knows a lot of Juvats, a lot of airline pilots, and
a lot of gun carriers. She has thought through the problem. She
understands it quite well. Why do you think she's been able to
tolerate me for the last thirty years?



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!

Well, I didn't say "lots of guys with GUNS...", Juvat did. But as
someone who has carried for the past twenty years (and had a CCW for
the last nine), I'm a strong believer that we are safer with more
honest citizens armed than in those communities that have strong gun
control laws--like NY City, Washington DC, Chicago, LA, etc.

Point taken. Rather than get involved in a gun control debate, all I
will say is that as someone who was raised around guns (from BB
guns on up to 12-guage shotguns and big game rifes w/powerful
scopes) when the term "gun" is mentioned I think back to all the good
times *hunting.*

Now, whether we're any safer these days in the big cities due to
honest citizens like yourself packing heat is debatable. Suffice to
say that I would agree and support your position 1,000,000-percent,
but just watching nutcases like those adolescent punks in Colorado
(pre-Colombine) and also in places like Iraq, Somalia, etc. wildly
emptying their magazines into the air indicates that there is a lot to
be said for promulgating, and more importantly, ENFORCING strict
gun control laws as well.

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

Ouh Rah! (sp?)

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

OK., But just who is this "Juvat" on RAM whose so obsessed with
"exhausting sessions" and "blurting out" and "Victoria's Secret?"

Nevermind Victoria's Secret (who ain't obsessed?) but you get my
drift, no?

Actually no. The creative "you wrote" version as a quote leader
doesn't degrade the message any more than a creative sig. I'm not a
Juvat, but know a lot of them. It took me less than thirty seconds to
find what "juvat" means through Google.

Juvat on RAM is a former AF fighter type now flying with the airlines.
As such I (and you as well) have seen his posts regularly and should
recognize him as one of those who makes a meaningful contribution from
a position of experience.

Again, point taken. Don't take my admittedly playful responses to
Juvat seriously. For the most part, I figure one good turn deserves
another and was just being friendly -- yanking his chain a bit with
regards to his creative "Victoria's Secret" quote leader and his
interesting RAM "callsign."

Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

If Juvat told your wife that she's safe flying on airliners these
days due to "LOTS OF GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AIRLINERS
RIGHT NOW" would she think through the problem?

Actually, my wife knows a lot of Juvats, a lot of airline pilots, and
a lot of gun carriers. She has thought through the problem. She
understands it quite well. Why do you think she's been able to
tolerate me for the last thirty years?

Heh. Guess ya' have to know my wife. Truth be known, she's really
not acting as paranoid about air travel as I'm making her out to be
here on this happy NG assembled. As an RN, she's pretty much
seen it all and she's also a very brave and patriotic woman. In fact,
it's Christmas day and she's at work right now saving lives and
stomping out disease as we speak! If she had a handgun and knew
how to use it, I think (I hope!) she wouldn't hesitate to pull it out
of her purse and use it on some asshole terrorist (Arab or otherwise)
while flying on an airliner.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Mike Marron wrote in
:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!


You could tell her that bad guys seldom strike where it's known that there
are good guys with guns. They prefer unarmed victims.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:03:54 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:
Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

Having been through a few passenger screenings for transatlantic flight
recently, how are "bad guys" meant to get aboard with available
firearms? If my belt buckle sets off the alarms then a handgun will do
so. (Please no foolishness about Glocks being 'undetectable', I owned
one and the frame is barium-filled plastic with metal inserts, the slide
solid steel - superb handguns but fully compliant with security
requirement)

(Agree with Mr Rasimus defending Juvat's choice of handle, by the way)

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

Well, if the choice is giving in to an asshole with a box cutter or
having a shootout at FL 340, what do you think is the better choice.

Fine, but where do I get _my_ firearms? I'm an honest citizen with
assorted clearances, military background, trusted with all sorts of
stuff. Why can't _I_ have a weapon to reassure me on the flight?

If someone tries to take over the aircraft with a craft knife, then I'm
willing to improvise an answer with my headphone cord (makes a handy
garotte and issued by the airline for every flight... or if I can't
trust that, my MP3 player's headphones will work) and the issue blanket
(lots of loose cloth to muffle a short-blade slash) and anything else I
can find to hand. The old days of "stay put, don't be noticed, don't
resist" are _gone_ and anyone trying to hijack an airliner these days is
going to be lucky to survive.

I'm not hostile to the idea of trusting others to protect me but I want
to be confident that they'll do a better job than I could. And while I'm
not an action movie hero, I've proved I'm a half-decent shot with rifle,
pistol, SMG, LMG, GPMG, rocket launcher, guided missile and called
indirect fire; so where do I apply for some armament?

Indeed, it strikes me that a logical approach to stealing an aircraft
with homicidal intent would be to get someone planted as a sky marshall
or pilot...

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk