North-Up versus Direction-Up?

On Dec 17, 10:40 am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi John,

I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
(including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
circling. I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
cruising. However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
than rotating. I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
make the switch automatically.


Paul,

I can only imagine how many times a day you talk to pilots about
soaring software! That being said, it seems that most people that
have responded to this thread, save yourself and those you speak for,
are using track/nose up. Hmmmm.

When I argue this point I talk about reducing the complexity of
routine flying activities so that I can concentrate and optimize those
actions that are really important. Driving is like that. After years
of practice, you no longer actively think about most routine driving
actions, which leaves you to actively think about the critical
aspects. After a while you instinctively knew that that car up ahead
is going to cut you off by some suptle indication which you are
probably unaware of, and you find yourself taking evasive action
without even thinking. If you have ever trained a teenager to drive,
you will remember their concentration on the really small things
("Dad, which peddle does what?") and forget about the REALLY important
things (like staying in their lane! Yikes!). Do you actively think
about the ruddle pedals and the stick when you fly anymore? I doubt
it. But I digress.

So picture yourself thermalling. Ahhhh. Of course optimizing the
thermal is critical to our sport. But there are other constants like
avoiding ships in the gaggle, maintaining coordinated flight, playing
what-ifs on the task, and...navigating...these are all secondary to
staying aloft. If I can simplify one task, I can concentrate more
fully on others. Great soaring pilots do nearly everything so second
nature that thermalling is now a secondary task and their mind can now
concentrate on even higher level issues like tactics.

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

Now, let's review thermalling with track-up. My navigation brain mind
is saying, "I glanced at my PDA and that BIG BLACK LINE is rotating
towards me (or away from me). When it is within about 10 degrees,
I'll start rolling out and speed up. Glance again. Here the line
comes and here I go. Now, what ARE those other pilots doing sticking
around?" I would contend that this is the simpler approach and
removes a navigational complexity so that I can concentrate on the
more critical constrains of soaring...like staying aloft.

So, the bottom line is that you will probably continue to do whatever
is most comfortable for yourself. But maybe next time my words will
come back to you and you might try flying heading-up. Who knows.
Come on SPRING! My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

ContestID67 wrote:

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

John, it's not that hard! The goal line remains steady while the track
line rotates. When the track line approaches the goal line, you can roll
out and go! Easy. If you aren't using a goal, you can still easily tell
which direction the track line is pointing and roll out on a North heading.

In reality, most pilots, most of the time, already know which way to go
because they remember what they were heading towards before they began
to circle. So, they don't even need to spend any time looking at the
PDA. Most of the time I'm thermalling, the map is covered by Mobile's
"Thermalling Assistant", so it doesn't matter what the map is doing.

The problem with Track Up while circling is it's hard to see what my
drift is (wind confirmation), to study the map, or pick another goal,
or get the details on some airspace because the map is moving. All these
are so much easier when the map is steady - and THAT'S how I reduce my
cockpit workload.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

This discussion is always really fun to watch :-)

Maybe I spent too much time in my youth playing video game where you
drove some tank/helicopter/spaceship around a screen that was always
"north up".

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

I can't imagine using the PDA to try and roll out on a heading !
There has to be _something_ for a visual reference. Isn't there ?
Cloud, sun, ?

Todd Smith
3S

On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.


Todd - The question still comes down to this: When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see themselves from above. So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

On Dec 17, 5:02*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

Todd - The question still comes down to this: *When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

Sure, some mental gymnastics are required, but they don't take any
significant time, because I have done it that way for so long.

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. *I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. *When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. *Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

I agree about the "eyes outside", but track up mode is slower for me
than north up.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: *There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. *They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see *themselves from above. *So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. *I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.


Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

Agreed.

I have the same conversation with sailors too. Some like one, some
the other.

toad wrote:

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation


I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.

That's how I did it when I was using a paper map, except I had to
imagine where the glider was.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Is this sort of a distrust of the GPS? It will take you there, and it's
only the last few miles where actually picking out the airport becomes
useful.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org