[OT] USA - TSA Obstructing Armed Pilots?

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:15:58 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Just don't forget to issue me one when I board, then. (I've never
fired a handgun, so I'll have a sawed-off shotgun please and thank
you!

Not on my airplane, I hope. Nice tidy little bullets are one thing,
but a handful of shot is another entirely. Pressurization systems are
good, but there is a limit.

Or were you planning on loading those little supposedly-nonlethal bean
bags? I don't think I like that any better.

How about a flammenwerfer if you don't want a handgun?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

From: Mary Shafer
Date: 12/25/2003 2:16 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:15:58 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Just don't forget to issue me one when I board, then. (I've never
fired a handgun, so I'll have a sawed-off shotgun please and thank
you!

Not on my airplane, I hope. Nice tidy little bullets are one thing,
but a handful of shot is another entirely. Pressurization systems are
good, but there is a limit.

Or were you planning on loading those little supposedly-nonlethal bean
bags? I don't think I like that any better.

How about a flammenwerfer if you don't want a handgun?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer


Mary, you have to think big. All airliners should have built in bombs. If
someone hijacks the airplane destroy it. Potential hijackers will get the hint.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"Mary Shafer" wrote...

Not on my airplane, I hope. Nice tidy little bullets are one thing,
but a handful of shot is another entirely. Pressurization systems are
good, but there is a limit.

As in most things, "it depends"...

If you are thinking about a 10 or 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 buck or larger
in normal loads, you are probably right (though I haven't done or seen any
analysis). With "bird shot" (#7 or 8 lead), though, the trade-off would be the
close-range "column of shot" effect vs lesser penetration. Even with a cylinder
bore in a 18 1/2" or sawed-off (highly illegal in most cases) barrel, the shot
does not disperse significantly until some finite distance from the barrel.
Until then, the shot is effectively a .72 cal (for 12 gauge) slug with muzzle
energy of 2000-3000 ft-lb.

OTOH, a short .410 gauge shotgun will likely have less muzzle energy (650 ft-lb
typical for slugs) than a max .45 Colt (410-840 ft-lb -- using comparative
figures for a multi-purpose [.45 Colt/.410 shotshell] Thompson/Center Contender
handgun) or typical .44 magnum (1100-1600 ft-lb) load, and slightly more than a
..45 auto (350-530 ft-lb). A 16 or 20 gauge shotgun will, obviously, be
somewhere in between (1400-2000 ft-lb).

I suppose I would worry most about a short-range "clean miss" with a 12-gauge
and buckshot -- it would make a BIG hole. Also, I would worry about ANY miss
with ANY firearm -- the potential for injuring innocent passengers is high
(though more acceptable than crashing the airplane and killing everyone).
However, longer-range "misses" with smaller-size shot would be less likely to be
lethal or damage-producing, and may be stopped by a seat back or partition.

OTOOH, I have seen evaluations of shotshells in .357 and .45 Auto caliber in
handgun loads. They are much less effective than any solid bullet load against
clothed bodies.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "John R
Weiss" blurted out:

OTOH, a short .410 gauge shotgun will likely have less muzzle energy (650 ft-lb
typical for slugs) than a max .45 Colt (410-840 ft-lb -- using comparative
figures for a multi-purpose [.45 Colt/.410 shotshell] Thompson/Center Contender
handgun) or typical .44 magnum (1100-1600 ft-lb) load, and slightly more than a
.45 auto (350-530 ft-lb). A 16 or 20 gauge shotgun will, obviously, be
somewhere in between (1400-2000 ft-lb).

What kind of numbers are you looking at with a H&K USP 40 Compact LEM?

Just curious...and out of pocket for five days.

Juvat

From: Juvat

What kind of numbers are you looking at with a H&K USP 40 Compact LEM?

Just curious...and out of pocket for five days.

Juvat

The formula for kinetic energy is

K = ½mv²

where K = kinetic energy, m = mass of the bullet and v = velocity of the
bullet.

Bear in mind most people use muzzle velocity as opposed to impact velocity.

The actual damage done to a body also takes into account cross sectional area
of the bullet, trype of bullet and inertia.

One thing to consider when choosing bullet types is what the target might be
wearing. Winter clothes tend to clog the cavity of a hollow point and reduce or
eliminate expansion. High velocity solid bullets may go through the target and
hit something not intended. The latter is why Mag-Safe, Glaser Safety Slugs etc
are made.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote...

Bear in mind most people use muzzle velocity as opposed to impact velocity.

Though muzzle velocity/energy is appropriate in this discussion because of the
close ranges, hunters definitely consider down-range velocity (and accompanying
bullet drop) and energy!


Winter clothes tend to clog the cavity of a hollow point and reduce or
eliminate expansion. High velocity solid bullets may go through the target and
hit something not intended. The latter is why Mag-Safe, Glaser Safety Slugs
etc
are made.

That is one reason I answered the post regarding shotguns. At very close range,
the "column of shot" may closely resemble a "Safety Slug" in terminal
ballistics, especially with small shot.

"Juvat" wrote...

What kind of numbers are you looking at with a H&K USP 40 Compact LEM?

The .40 S&W has about 400-500 ft-lb muzzle energy.

From: "John R Weiss"

snip

With "bird shot" (#7 or 8 lead), though, the trade-off would bethe
close-range "column of shot" effect vs lesser penetration. Even with a
cylinder bore in a 18 1/2" or sawed-off (highly illegal in most cases) barrel,



Under federal law the minimum barrel lengths are 18" for shotguns and 16" for
rifles. I know of no state law that furthe restricts length.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote...

Even with a
cylinder bore in a 18 1/2" or sawed-off (highly illegal in most cases) barrel,

Under federal law the minimum barrel lengths are 18" for shotguns and 16" for
rifles. I know of no state law that furthe restricts length.

That's why I tried to differentiate between a 18 1/2" (legal) and a sawed-off
(illegal) barrel. The OP mentioned "sawed-off," which would normally be illegal
in any case (don't know if they are legal under Class III regs).

In article Jb0Hb.141848$8y1.422519@attbi_s52,
"John R Weiss" wrote:

That's why I tried to differentiate between a 18 1/2" (legal) and a
sawed-off (illegal) barrel. The OP mentioned "sawed-off," which
would normally be illegal in any case (don't know if they are legal
under Class III regs).

That's a funny thing...

It's generally illegal to cut a normal shotgun down to a short barrel
length, but it *is* legal to manufacture a short-barreled shotgun and
sell it as an "All Other Weapons" Class III firearm, with a $5 tax
stamp. There are some *very* neat little three-shot 12 gauge shotguns
with 9" barrels out there (with a folding handle on the slide to help
control the little monster). Based on the Mossberg action. I've seen
them go for as little as $250 used on some gun auction sites.

They don't have as much punch as a regular 12 gauge, but hey, if you
have a Class III license, it's practically an impulse buy... and a
*serious* short-range low collateral-damage weapon.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.