Winch Launching

On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:
A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/serv...ionDispatcher?...
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Bob

Bob, can you comment on German winch safety statistics?

Bill Daniels

On Jan 6, 12:22*am, "
wrote:
A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/serv...ionDispatcher?...
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Bob

Good points Bob. If only CCSC were 3200ft long.

Frank

On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:
Snip
Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)
Snip

Hope the snip is right...

How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
at? If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

Bill

Unfortunately I can't. As my Deutsch skills only allow me to order a
bier, find the restroom, and get authorization to transit airspace I
have a hard time with researching the stats. I will ask and see if I
can get them.

Frank

2800 feet is still enough for a 1000 foot launch in a plane with a cCG
hook. Good for pattern work and landing practice. And as landing
practice is the most expensive cost of learning to soar {all those
pesky areotows just to get lannding practice :´)} a winch launch is a
good way to get landing practice. On a good day, i.e. no thermals...I
could get 6-10 landings during my training at a cost of 35€ (before
our clud had it's ab initio deal). And, let's face it, to be a safe
soaring pilot landing skills are paramount!

Surfer

Don't know as I have never ridge soared off a winch launch but it
would be great! I think that most pilots would be safer if they
learned to fly at lower heights(AGL). If you learn to fly correctly at
1000-900-800-700 feet, the procedures for flying at these AGL heights
should be the same as those for higher flights, the views are
different. At some point early in your soaring career you will be at
these heights, and of course you will be within reach of a landable
field, so you may as well have a lot of practice. I certainly still
have a habit of getting low once per long flight. Pick a field, circle
in 0 lift, circle, circle, .5, circle... .8....1.0 and away I go after
30 minutes or so.

These issues are CFIG issues. If your instructors were comfortable
with winch launches then everyone would be comfortable. I don't know
how you get a core of instructors winch "savvy" unless you all get
together and send a bunch our way :-}

Bob

On Jan 6, 3:05*pm, Surfer! wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:
Snip
Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Snip

Hope the snip is right...

How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
at? *If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

FWIW, I was lucky enough to learn auto-tows (not quite the same as
winching) from John Campbell back in the mid 1980's. We rarely got
above 700-800 feet AGL, but this was actually IDEAL training for
students getting close to solo. It forces you to develop a very good
"feel" for the pattern and requires a certain amount of flexibility
when things don't go quite as planned. Plus, you can operate with
only one rated pilot, eliminating the "no tow pilot today" problem
which happens in many smaller clubs.

If I were king, I would have an operation that used both winch and
aero tow. The winch comes out first thing in the morning (no reason
not to start at 7 a.m. on nice summer days), and your students who are
ready for landing practice get 3 hours all to themselves while a) the
neighbors get to sleep in and b) the students don't burn huge holes in
their wallet. Round about 11 am the towplane fires up and hauls some
early students who need airwork as well as the XC guys who just HAVE
to get going now. Tow pilot takes his/her lunch break around 1 pm
and the winch gets going again to work with more students as well as
those cheapskates who just can't bring themselves to spend $50 on a
2,000 foot aero-tow while they can get a 1,200 foot winch launch for
$18.

Sorry Rolf - not really answering your question. I guess the only
point is that it's not "either-or" and there are certainly many pilots
(students or folks who need to just stay current) who would benefit
from more landing practice.

Erik Mann

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:56:40 -0800, wrote:

2800 feet is still enough for a 1000 foot launch in a plane with a cCG
hook. Good for pattern work and landing practice.

A little more is better for xc, but not a lot more is needed. I'm a
flatland pilot and almost always go xc off the winch. We use about 3000
ft of cable and don't normally get less than 1100, or 1200 if we're near
Vwinch at the top and can zoom an extra 100+.

And as landing practice is the most expensive cost of learning to soar
{all those pesky aerotows just to get landing practice :´)} a winch
launch is a good way to get landing practice.

Absolutely. I learnt on the winch. My only pre-solo aero tow was for a
spin demo. That was a good summer, so all my spin training was from the
winch plus a good thermal. I wasn't cleared for solo aero tow until I'd
been solo a year.

Don't know as I have never ridge soared off a winch launch but it would
be great! I think that most pilots would be safer if they learned to fly
at lower heights(AGL).

The height you need for winch launching depends a lot on the local
geology. Here's the (small) list I've flown at:

Sutton bank. This field is on top of an almost vertical cliff, so the
winch just lobs you over the edge at about 400 ft. If the ridge is
working that's plenty.

Dunstable. The field is at the bottom of a 3-400 ft ridge. Its food marks
the airfield boundary, so anything over 700 ft will see you comfortably
onto it and 4-500 ft should do the trick in a westerly.

Portmoak. The field is maybe a mile from The Bishop, which is an 1100
foot ridge. If its working you launch almost directly away from it.
1000-1100 ft is plenty. You turn right and fly onto the ridge, arriving
above 800 ft. 2-3 beats round the first bowl puts you above the top from
where you can see enough to get safely round the corner onto the main
ridge.

I certainly still have a habit of getting low once per long flight.

Likewise.
IMO that's another reason for going xc off the winch: if you can get away
from it on a given day then there is a very good chance that you'll be
able to do it again if you get low out on the task.

This is in contrast to the sort of day where there's nothing below
2000ft. If you aero tow to 2500 to start an xc you'll not know that its
worms below 2K and getting low well mean an unpleasant discovery followed
by a visit to les vaches.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 6, 3:16*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Jan 6, 3:05*pm, Surfer! wrote:



On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:
Snip
Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Snip

Hope the snip is right...

How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
at? *If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

FWIW, I was lucky enough to learn auto-tows (not quite the same as
winching) from John Campbell back in the mid 1980's. * We rarely got
above 700-800 feet AGL, but this was actually IDEAL training for
students getting close to solo. * It forces you to develop a very good
"feel" for the pattern and requires a certain amount of flexibility
when things don't go quite as planned. * Plus, you can operate with
only one rated pilot, eliminating the "no tow pilot today" problem
which happens in many smaller clubs.

If I were king, I would have an operation that used both winch and
aero tow. * The winch comes out first thing in the morning (no reason
not to start at 7 a.m. on nice summer days), and your students who are
ready for landing practice get 3 hours all to themselves while a) the
neighbors get to sleep in and b) the students don't burn huge holes in
their wallet. *Round about 11 am the towplane fires up and hauls some
early students who need airwork as well as the XC guys who just HAVE
to get going now. * *Tow pilot takes his/her lunch break around 1 pm
and the winch gets going again to work with more students as well as
those cheapskates who just can't bring themselves to spend $50 on a
2,000 foot aero-tow while they can get a 1,200 foot winch launch for
$18.

Sorry Rolf - not really answering your question. *I guess the only
point is that it's not "either-or" and there are certainly many pilots
(students or folks who need to just stay current) who would benefit
from more landing practice.

Erik Mann

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...t=olc&pi=18098

One pilot's summer. Coyote Run is a winch site. Note the Coyote Run
to Parowan to Coyote Run to Parowan to Ely series. He derigged once.
Didn't quite make it home on the last day of his summer safari.

Read how Cliff spent his summer vacation, http://tinyurl.com/7lwmbj

On Jan 6, 12:43*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:





A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/serv...ionDispatcher?...
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Bob

Bob, can you comment on German winch safety statistics?

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tried to get these figures from the DAeC - no luck.
However, I got the statistics on glider launches split into aero-tow
and winch launches in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia (my old
stomping grounds). This state is not the most active soaring area in
Germany nor is it blessed with superb XC conditions many days of the
year. The overall number of glider flights is slightly declining but
the split between aero-tow and winch launches is slightly growing in
favor of winching. There are many fields similar in size of CCSC in
this area which winch exclusively due to housing developments growing
ever closer to the field.

Uli Neumann