Short Wings Gliders

Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.


http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?

yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!

All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).

yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!

Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.

yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............


I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.

On Jan 28, 8:52*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK *wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?

yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!

All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).

yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!

Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.

yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............

I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. *If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would posit that the racing guys are a very small percentage of the
total population of sailplane pilots. But, they have an overwhelming
impact on the sport in terms of being catered to by the manufacturers.

Brad

Brad wrote:
On Jan 28, 8:52 pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.
http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...
Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?
yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!
All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).
yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!
Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.
yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would posit that the racing guys are a very small percentage of the
total population of sailplane pilots. But, they have an overwhelming
impact on the sport in terms of being catered to by the manufacturers.

Brad

The point I was trying to make was that they are talking about creating
a 13.5 meter racing class that won't have anyone racing in it.

At 04:52 29 January 2009, Greg Arnold wrote:

I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.

http://www.126association.org/graphics/tsa_grid.jpg

Jim Beckman

Jim Beckman wrote:
At 04:52 29 January 2009, Greg Arnold wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.

http://www.126association.org/graphics/tsa_grid.jpg

Jim Beckman



Yep. But that is the 1-26. We were talking about a new 13.5 meter
class -- such a class would soon disappear without a trace due to the
lack of interest.

I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders
together to have a contest. If you are into racing, you will buy
something with at least 15 meters of span.

Yep. But that is the 1-26. We were talking about a new 13.5
meter class -- such a class would soon disappear without a trace
due to the lack of interest.

This snobby attitude really gets to me. If you ask most non-
owners what their dream sailplane is, they'll say a Discus2 or
some other $100K German ship. Getting closer to reality, they'll
say they would settle for an LS4 or an ASW20. Then at the level
of disposable income, they most likely have the money for a K6
or a Russia. I was one of these. I finally analyzed where I was
at with my flying and my finances and decided that instead of
waiting for the bank account to have the necessary funds for old
German glass, I would be farther ahead to get something now,
fly it for awhile and keep saving, then move up when the time
was right. 7 years after buying a Russia I am switching to an
ASW20. Was the short wing bird the way to go. YES!!! I have
had tons of fun learning to fly X/C with it and will miss it. Most
pilots I fly with in short wing gliders are not interested in hot
competition. They are interested in improving their skills and
enjoy the comradery of like minded individuals. A fun contest
like the 1-26ers have I think would be welcomed. I hope the
World class morphs into what Bill Snead suggests - a class
handicapped to +/-5% of the PW5. That would include a lot of
ships that have no place to go right now. Realizing that one big
reason that people fly short wing birds is the low cost of entry,
smaller meets at more locations would be the way to go. Not too
many people are going to pack up their PW5 or Russia and
travel thousands of miles to compete. Many will however, drive
within their state to attend. My 2 cents.

Brian Bange

Brian Bange wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders
together to have a contest. If you are into racing, you will buy
something with at least 15 meters of span.
Yep. But that is the 1-26. We were talking about a new 13.5
meter class -- such a class would soon disappear without a trace
due to the lack of interest.
This snobby attitude really gets to me.

Snobby?


If you ask most non-
owners what their dream sailplane is, they'll say a Discus2 or
some other $100K German ship. Getting closer to reality, they'll
say they would settle for an LS4 or an ASW20. Then at the level
of disposable income, they most likely have the money for a K6
or a Russia. I was one of these. I finally analyzed where I was
at with my flying and my finances and decided that instead of
waiting for the bank account to have the necessary funds for old
German glass, I would be farther ahead to get something now,
fly it for awhile and keep saving, then move up when the time
was right. 7 years after buying a Russia I am switching to an
ASW20. Was the short wing bird the way to go. YES!!! I have
had tons of fun learning to fly X/C with it and will miss it. Most
pilots I fly with in short wing gliders are not interested in hot
competition. They are interested in improving their skills and
enjoy the comradery of like minded individuals. A fun contest
like the 1-26ers have I think would be welcomed. I hope the
World class morphs into what Bill Snead suggests - a class
handicapped to +/-5% of the PW5. That would include a lot of
ships that have no place to go right now. Realizing that one big
reason that people fly short wing birds is the low cost of entry,
smaller meets at more locations would be the way to go. Not too
many people are going to pack up their PW5 or Russia and
travel thousands of miles to compete. Many will however, drive
within their state to attend. My 2 cents.

Brian Bange

Most of them are not flying in Sports Class now. Why do you think they
would fly in a 13.5 Meter Class?

And if they were flying in Sports Class, what is to be gained by
establishing a new 13.5 Meter class?

The comment here seems to be roughly the same as when we see people
advocating kicking the modern gliders out of Sports Class -- if we just
change the rules, lots of pilots will suddenly come out of the woodwork
and start completing. Not gonna happen.

On Jan 29, 10:06*am, Greg Arnold wrote:
Brian Bange wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders
together to have a contest. *If you are into racing, you will buy
something with at least 15 meters of span.
Yep. *But that is the 1-26. *We were talking about a new 13.5
meter class -- such a class would soon disappear without a trace
due to the lack of interest.
This snobby attitude really gets to me.

Snobby?

If you ask most non-





owners what their dream sailplane is, they'll say a Discus2 or
some other $100K German ship. Getting closer to reality, they'll
say they would settle for an LS4 or an ASW20. Then at the level
of disposable income, they most likely have the money for a K6
or a Russia. I was one of these. I finally analyzed where I was
at with my flying and my finances and decided that instead of
waiting for the bank account to have the necessary funds for old
German glass, I would be farther ahead to get something now,
fly it for awhile and keep saving, then move up when the time
was right. 7 years after buying a Russia I am switching to an
ASW20. Was the short wing bird the way to go. YES!!! I have
had tons of fun learning to fly X/C with it and will miss it. Most
pilots I fly with in short wing gliders are not interested in hot
competition. They are interested in improving their skills and
enjoy the comradery of like minded individuals. A fun contest
like the 1-26ers have I think would be welcomed. I hope the
World class morphs into what Bill Snead suggests - a class
handicapped to +/-5% of the PW5. That would include a lot of
ships that have no place to go right now. Realizing that one big
reason that people fly short wing birds is the low cost of entry,
smaller meets at more locations would be the way to go. Not too
many people are going to pack up their PW5 or Russia and
travel thousands of miles to compete. Many will however, drive
within their state to attend. My 2 cents.

Brian Bange

Most of them are not flying in Sports Class now. *Why do you think they
would fly in a 13.5 Meter Class?

And if they were flying in Sports Class, what is to be gained by
establishing a new 13.5 Meter class?

The comment here seems to be roughly the same as when we see people
advocating kicking the modern gliders out of Sports Class -- if we just
change the rules, lots of pilots will suddenly come out of the woodwork
and start completing. *Not gonna happen.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why does everything revolve around flying for competition? Why can't
we look at what would best promote and encourage more people to learn
to fly sailplanes?

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane? I see in soaring magazine that there are
some that can do that, kudos to them............I would be interested
to know the economic situation they are in to allow them the luxury of
flying sailplanes competetively.

I imagine a lot of us recognize the comp pilots as great guys/gals who
have done what it takes to fly in contests but beyond that, could care
less about them or their exploits.

I would rather read articles in soaring about great exploration
flights in the mountains by recreational pilots instead of Joe Go-fast
in his nifty new racing glider and how he won by 5 seconds.

I also find the concept of some one brave enough to consider offering
a sailplane that was fun to fly and had reasonable cross-country
performance to allow the recreational flyer to afford a new sailplane
and have a blast flying it. Rather than offering another glass slipper
that only Cinderella can afford. (just a metaphor folks)

There is room for all of us in the soaring tent.

Brad

On Jan 29, 1:34*pm, Brad wrote:

Why does everything revolve around flying for competition?

Not everything, but this discussion is about a new 13.5 meter RACING
class.

On your last point. If you can figure out how to make ANY type of
sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might
start growing like crazy. But there seems no way to build a glider
that cheap.

Todd Smith
3S

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas