Short Wings Gliders

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

Andreas

How many flights and how many hours do they typically fly
for a price that hardly exceeds $800.

Tows, winch?

Any other expense?

In this regard Italy is not certainly part of Europe!!!!

On 30 Jan 2009 18:30:03 GMT, Dan Silent wrote:

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

Andreas

How many flights and how many hours do they typically fly
for a price that hardly exceeds $800.

In my club:
Unlimited number of flights and hours, typically the fleet of 7
gliders does around 2.100 flights per year with about 1.700 hrs in
average.
In average 85-90 active pilots.
A keen student pilot easily manages 80 - 100 flights per year.


Tows, winch?
Usually winch (of course).

Any other expense?
No other expense.

These fees include a 255 Euro "flat rate" for an unlimited number of
winch launches and an unlimited number of flying hours. Member fee per
year is 64 Euro for student pilots and 128 Euro for members with an
income. At the current exchange rates this is about $500. Most German
clubs are slightly more expensive, this is why I mentioned the number
of $800.

The only additional fees are aerotows with a typical cost of 24
Euro/aerotow.




Bye
Andreas

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.


Todd Smith
3S

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:32:48 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.

Usually 2 gliders are reserved for XC, each pilot has got about 5 to 6
weekend days per season where the glider belongs to him.

There are also about 7 private gliders which are used by the serious
XC pilots.

Of course, if necessary, we could trade the ASW-27 into two ASW-20's
if we felt the need to increase our capacity - but on most days the
current capacity is more than sufficient.

At 22:52 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:32:48 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.

Usually 2 gliders are reserved for XC, each pilot has got about 5 to 6
weekend days per season where the glider belongs to him.

Let's see if I can manage these numbers at all. 80 pilots,
five days, that's 400 days. Divide by 2 XC gliders, that's
200 days. Divide again by 2 days per weekend, that comes
to around 100 weekends per season. Where did you say all
this happens? And I don't suppose it ever rains?

Jim Beckman

On 31 Jan 2009 12:45:03 GMT, Jim Beckman
wrote:

At 22:52 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:32:48 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.

Usually 2 gliders are reserved for XC, each pilot has got about 5 to 6
weekend days per season where the glider belongs to him.

Let's see if I can manage these numbers at all. 80 pilots,
five days, that's 400 days. Divide by 2 XC gliders, that's
200 days. Divide again by 2 days per weekend, that comes
to around 100 weekends per season. Where did you say all
this happens? And I don't suppose it ever rains?

Not everyone is flying XC in my club every day.
First of all, you have to deduct 25 student pilots, resulting in about
60 licensed piltos who are alowed to go XC.

Of those, in 2008 22 pilots took part in XC-flying with club gliders,
some reserving a glider for their vacatiuon or for a competition. We
reserved two gliders per day (two single seaters or one single seater
and one double seater) for XC. Depending on the weather, some XC with
a reserved glider pilots don't even show up, freing up the glider for
someone else. Most of the XC flying on club gliders is done during the
week.

All of the "really serious" XC pilots own a glider.
Works pretty well - actually, often we don't even use all the glider
we have.

On Jan 30, 5:52*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:32:48 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? *7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.

Usually 2 gliders are reserved for XC, each pilot has got about 5 to 6
weekend days per season where the glider belongs to him.

There are also about 7 private gliders which are used by the serious
XC pilots.

Of course, if necessary, we could trade the ASW-27 into two ASW-20's
if we felt the need to increase our capacity - but on most days the
current capacity is more than sufficient.

This brings me back to your original perception about US pilots all
wanting to own their own glider. That perception might be skewed by
only hearing from the US pilots who post here, who are mostly "serious
XC pilots", or want to be. There are lots of US glider pilots flying
club equipment and having fun, but the time limits on flights during
weekends prevent them from doing much XC until they buy a glider
themselves or withing a partnership. Those club pilots spend less
time on RAS :-)

Todd Smith
3S

Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

$800 ist *very* optimistic. It may be true for your club, but it
certainly isn't typical, not even in Europe.

I flew around 100 hours on club gliders last year, typically on LS8 or
DG1000, fully equiped with LX5000. (Ok, on some days when many pilots
showed up I had to take an LS4, which is our low-end glider...) All my
flights were cross country and usually I had a glider for my own for the
whole day (or a double seater with a second pilot).

This cost me around $4500 (beer not included). Which is still much less
than the annual cost I would have to pay for my own glider. And we
launch exclusively by aerotow.

How much of that $4500.00 was in tow?
Udo


At 20:07 30 January 2009, John Smith wrote:
Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

$800 ist *very* optimistic. It may be true for your club, but it
certainly isn't typical, not even in Europe.

I flew around 100 hours on club gliders last year, typically on LS8 or
DG1000, fully equiped with LX5000. (Ok, on some days when many pilots
showed up I had to take an LS4, which is our low-end glider...) All my
flights were cross country and usually I had a glider for my own for the

whole day (or a double seater with a second pilot).

This cost me around $4500 (beer not included). Which is still much less
than the annual cost I would have to pay for my own glider. And we
launch exclusively by aerotow.