Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 30, 2:46*pm, John Smith wrote:
I don't know a single glider pilot who doesn't think that power flying
is just plain dull. Certainly useful, but nevertheless dull.

Well it's true that you don't know me, but if you did I'd raise the
count from zero to one. I've instructed, towed, flown jumpers, flown
sea planes, and tail wheel, done some aerobatics, dodged weather to
deliver blood and even flew one of them whirly things (Bell 47) once.
In fact all sorts of flying of powered aircraft ranging in size from a
J3 to an MD-11. Some parts were routine, some part of it were
exciting, but I don't remember thinking that any of it was dull.

Dull is sitting in glider and staying within gliding range of the
launch point while your friends race.

Andy

friends race.

Andy

define race?

Brad

At 23:45 30 January 2009, Andy wrote:

Dull is sitting in glider and staying within gliding range of the
launch point while your friends race.

Andy


THIS DULL IS FINE FOR ME, Mr Beenthere Donethat!
Particularly on a SWG (Short Wing Glider)
Or flying a magnificent 30:1 ASK21, sometime unable to get to
the next thermal, but having FUN!

Any sort of flying is fun, but soaring a glider cross-country is the most
fun you can have with your clothes on (IMHO).

What is not fun (i.e. dull) is sitting in a farmers field for hours while
you wait for someone to come and collect you after a land out. The problem
with short winged gliders is that they increase the possibility of not
being able to glide to the next source of lift, particularly in the UK
which has very patchy and inconsistent weather and often quite low
cloudbases.

It is actually aspect ratio (span/mean chord) rather than span that
defines a glider's performance. To achieve a high aspect ratio and a
sensible wing loading with a short span wing, you would have to make the
glider very light by using exotic and expensive materials. So the cost
savings may not be as great as you think....!

The glide angle of a K21 is actually about 34:1, which is about the best
you could expect from a 13.5m single seater.

Derek Copeland




At 00:30 31 January 2009, Dan Silent wrote:
At 23:45 30 January 2009, Andy wrote:

Dull is sitting in glider and staying within gliding range of the
launch point while your friends race.

Andy


THIS DULL IS FINE FOR ME, Mr Beenthere Donethat!
Particularly on a SWG (Short Wing Glider)
Or flying a magnificent 30:1 ASK21, sometime unable to get to
the next thermal, but having FUN!

On Jan 30, 5:30*pm, Dan Silent wrote:
THIS DULL IS FINE FOR ME, Mr Beenthere Donethat!

I'll rephrase what I wrote so my intention is more clear.

"Dull *for me* is sitting in a glider and staying within gliding range
of the launch point while *my* friends race."

I have no interest in judging whether other people's activities are
exciting or dull to them.

Andy

"John Smith" wrote in I don't know a single
glider pilot who doesn't think that power flying
is just plain dull. Certainly useful, but nevertheless dull.


I don't think so! In fact, reflecting on this some, not sure I know of *any*
kind of flying that is "dull".

I was a power pilot 1st, then got my glider add-on in '97 (USA). Besides my
glider (ASH26E), I have a Husky A1-B that is an absolute blast to fly. I can
think of dozens of adjectives, none of which truly capture the joy and
exhilaration . . . and none of which comes anywhere near "dull".

If you knew me, make that 2.

bumper
Quiet Vent kit and MKIII "high tech" yaw string

Andreas,

It is a mind-set in US clubs. First, hardly any clubs use winches and
they must spend enormous amounts of money to own, operate, and insure tow
planes. Second, there are few places where a winch could be used that are
near a population area big enough to draw members to support a club; we see
a turnover of about 15% of the membership every year. Third, we are busy,
busy, busy in this country; we work longer hours and have more time
constraints than Europeans (I think this has been proved), and this means
that we want to show up, rig, fly, and leave without staying around all
day to help others and to be a true club where people hang out and
socialize with families. Most clubs don't have female pilots and wives
and girlfriends grow tired of coming to a place where there is nothing for
them to do or no one to socialize with. Fourth, all of this means we want
our own equipment so that we can treat it as we wish without consulting
others about it; this pride of ownership means that privately owned
gliders are beautifully kept, for the most part, and club machines are
"junk" in the words of a short-term (4 years) resident from Finland.

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas

Andreas,
the problems in the US and Canada are two fold.
Glider pilots per capita and as a result pilot density.
Also an important differance is the individualistic approach in the US.

There are a number of clubs that operate on the European model and are
successful but there are not enough of them due to the points mentioned
above.

Here in Ontario Canada, with about 12M people, only two Clubs approach
the European model. In Canada with 33M people we only have 1500 Glider
pilots.

I give you a personal example of the problem. When I started gliding in
my mid forties I was established and I owned by then a house in a small
town. The Club I joint was a 1hr drive away . The club had 35 members and
20 were mostly active. We had a Scout tow plane, a 2-33,a Blanik, a twin
astir and a
single astir. No club house and we did not own the field.
Due to a serious of unfortunate events the club went belly up.
I now became a roving pilot. The closest clubs were 3 and 4 hours way. In
the end I did not join any club I became a member at large of the National
club and joint the contest circuit. It was not ideal but still gratifying
and enjoyable.
Lucky for me I was able to pursue the hobby that way.
Now That I will reduce my contest flying, I wish I had a club nearby.
Selling the house and buying an other one near a club is out of the
question. Well, it looks like I may to buy a used self launcher which is
cheaper then moving.
Regards
Udo

Here are some local statistics - Houston TX area:

At my club we had 9 short wing gliders last season.
*One PW5 is a club ship and was flown in the World class
nationals by a member.
*4 PW5's are private and only one does not go X/C.
*3 Russia's are private, 2 go X/C and the third is working
toward that goal.
*One Woodstock is flown X/C by its builder on a regular basis.
*4 of the pilots have attended at least one X/C camp at a
location hundreds of miles away.
*All of the owners are over 50 except one.
*Two of the Russia's were sold this winter and the members are
moving up to 15M ships.

Here the short wing ships are doing what the SSA intended:
allowing prospective X/C pilots to buy affordable ships that are
relatively new and have performance that is good enough to go
X/C. I guess "affordable" should be used carefully, as we are all
"older" and probably have more disposable income than the
younger members. I have only seen one "youngster" buy a ship
in the last 5 years. I think disposable income is shrinking for our
younger pilots. I don't see as many these days, but perhaps I
am just no longer paying attention.

So... If our group of older pilots represents a larger group of
pilots nationwide (debatable) then competitions might want to be
oriented to fulfill their wants and desires. From personal
experience I can tell you this group of newbies does not want to
spend time getting their noses rubbed in the dirt by a bunch of
super pilots flying super ships. If you want them them to go to a
race IMHO, make it more like a camp or a mentoring program
and hold it separately from the longer wing competitions. Lots of
us just want to go fly with like minded friends. Some will feel
competitive, many will attend just to learn and build stick time. I
really think we need to look at this in a whole new way to make
it successful. Low stress, high fun factor.

I can tell you that within our club, we have doubled the number
of X/C pilots in the last 5 years. X/C has really come alive
because of the short wings.

Brian

At 21:30 30 January 2009, Brian Bange wrote:

At my club we had 9 short wing gliders last season.

.....I can tell you this group of newbies does not want to
spend time getting their noses rubbed in the dirt by a bunch of super
pilots flying super ships. If you want them them to go to a race IMHO,
make it more like a camp or a mentoring program and hold it separately
from the longer wing competitions. Lots of us just want to go fly with
like minded friends.

LESS THEN 10 PCT OF GLIDER PILOTS COMPETE!
THE USED MARKET IS FILLED BY THE GLIDERS THEY SOLD....
THOSE GLIDERS WERE DESIGNED TO WIN, OF COURSE!!!

Some will feel competitive, many will attend just to learn and build
stick time. I really think we need to look at this in a whole new way to
make it successful.
Low stress, high fun factor.
I can tell you that within our club, we have doubled the number of X/C
pilots in the last 5 years. X/C has really come alive because of the
short wings.

Brian

WERE THOSE SHORT WINGS GLIDERS DESIGNED FOR FUN AND SAFE FLIGHTS?
OR WERE DESIGNED TO WIN IN THE NEW FAI CLASS:

THE SHORT WINGS HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS