Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 30, 12:56*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany *it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic *training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.

Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.

Bye
Andreas

Probably because in most US clubs, that $800 a year can only support
the airport, towplanes, a couple of two seat trainers, a couple of low
performance single seaters and maybe a ASK-21 or G-103.

To allow everybody to fly a LS-4 on the weekends would require maybe 1
LS-4 to 4 or 5 club members, if half of them showed up on the same day
and all got to fly for 2-3 hours.

So buying a $40,000 glider for 5 people would require a loan payment
of $6000/year plus insurance/maint of $1000/year. Ignoring other
expenses that still adds up to $1400/year/person.

I assumed 10% interest for 10 years.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

Todd Smith
3S

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

Probably because in most US clubs, that $800 a year can only support
the airport, towplanes, a couple of two seat trainers, a couple of low
performance single seaters and maybe a ASK-21 or G-103.

I know.
We have ASK-21, DG-505, SF-34, Ka-8b, 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, Dimona
motorglider, DR-300 tow plane.


To allow everybody to fly a LS-4 on the weekends would require maybe 1
LS-4 to 4 or 5 club members, if half of them showed up on the same day
and all got to fly for 2-3 hours.

Typical flying times in the club's gliders are shorter on a crowded
day since there are about 3 to 4 pilots per glider per day. Average
time per flight for ASK-21 basic training is about 15 minutes.


So buying a $40,000 glider for 5 people would require a loan payment
of $6000/year plus insurance/maint of $1000/year. Ignoring other
expenses that still adds up to $1400/year/person.


I assumed 10% interest for 10 years.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

It works. The key is winch launching.

Income:
85 members, 370 Euro per year: 31.450 Euro

Costs:
Winch launch: 2.40 Euro
Typical number of winch launches: 1.700
Total costs of winch launches: 4080 Euro
Insurance for all gliders per year and other expenses: : 15.000 Euro.

Profit per year: about 12.500 Euro.

The tow plane just covers its costs.
A little additional profit is generated by the club house, too (less
than 2.000 Euro typically).






Bye
Andreas

At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy from
anybody.

Jim Beckman

Jim Beckman wrote:
At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.
So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy from
anybody.

We have a totally new government in the US now and they seem more than
willing to take over and control what once were private decisions/endeavors.

Regards,

-Doug

On Jan 30, 2:53*pm, Doug Hoffman wrote:
Jim Beckman wrote:
At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.
So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. *Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art *forms, with no subsidy from
anybody.

We have a totally new government in the US now and they seem more than
willing to take over and control what once were private decisions/endeavors.

Regards,

-Doug

Eric...................Eric where are you?

Brad

Doug Hoffman wrote:
Jim Beckman wrote:
At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.
So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy
from
anybody.

We have a totally new government in the US now and they seem more than
willing to take over and control what once were private
decisions/endeavors.

Banking - yes, gliders - no.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On 30 Jan 2009 21:15:03 GMT, Jim Beckman
wrote:

At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy from
anybody.

No help from government here either.
$11 per gallon of avgas doesn't help, too.

At 23:01 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

No help from government here either.
$11 per gallon of avgas doesn't help, too.

What does it cost you to use the field, or do you own it (in which case,
how much do you pay in taxes for the field)? Oh, and while we're at it,
just where is the field? I'd really like to understand how the Europeans
keep the costs so low - it would be nice if we could do the same here in
the Colonies.

Jim Beckman

On 31 Jan 2009 12:45:04 GMT, Jim Beckman
wrote:


What does it cost you to use the field, or do you own it (in which case,
how much do you pay in taxes for the field)? Oh, and while we're at it,
just where is the field? I'd really like to understand how the Europeans
keep the costs so low - it would be nice if we could do the same here in
the Colonies.

Well... in the past we used the fiel essentially for free.
In 1999 we bought the airfield for about 300.000 Euro (which we shared
50:50 with the second club at Landau). The repayment of our 150.000
Euro share is going to be finished in 2011.
Unfortunately we were not able to invest in new gliders since 1999, so
the average age of our fleet has suffered badly.

Here's our website:
www.djk-landau.de

At 21:14 31 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Well... in the past we used the fiel essentially for free.
In 1999 we bought the airfield for about 300.000 Euro (which we shared
50:50 with the second club at Landau). The repayment of our 150.000
Euro share is going to be finished in 2011.

I'm starting to lose track of which club is which, but you seem to be
raising this amount of capital with around 80 or so members? This is the
kind of thing that we always seem unable to do, even though we have
something close to your membership numbers. Was this all paid for out of
yearly flying fees? I suppose the advantages of owning and controlling
your own field makes up for not upgrading your fleet for those years. On
the other hand, I suppose your club is paying taxes on the property now?

Jim Beckman