Short Wings Gliders

On 31 Jan 2009 22:15:02 GMT, Jim Beckman
wrote:


Only 22 pilots? Now the numbers starts to make sense. What they actually
tell us is that your club gliders don't really fly all that much
cross-country. Which is fine, of course.

Well.. let me put it this way:

In 2008 club members made 53.000 kilometers in the OLC (similar to
your club), placing us in the top ten percent of Germany's flying
clubs, most of them situated in far better thermal conditions than our
airfield. 30.000 kilometers of those were flown in club gliders.
Nearly all pensioned members don't even try to fly XC on the weekends
because they fly during the week were the other pilots need work (but
they appear on the airfield to help and to have a good time). You'd
need to add these 10 to 15 people to the 22 pilots which are on the XC
reservation list.
BTW: At the moment the entire German 15m-class national team consists
of pilots of my club
I'm pretty content with the situation.


Which also makes sense - about a quarter of the fleet flown XC by about a
quarter of your pilots. I would guess that our own club in Blairstown
does about that well with XC in club gliders, although our fleet looks
shabby indeed next to yours.

We're having this dicussion since at least a decade: One
state-of-the-art glider (e.g. ASW-27) or two older ones which are
hardly inferior (e.g. ASW-20)? So far we have more than sufficient
gliders for XC pilots, but we just bought an old Mistral-C as a first
single seater after the 21 because we got so many new student pilots
last year (THIS is what is missing: a basic trainer, compatible to the
ASK-21, and affordable).

But it's interesting: Most XC pilots of my club are pretty content if
they fly two to three hours and return with 200 to 250 kilometers. The
number of hardcore XC pilots who try to fly as far as possible
whenever the weather allows it is very limited - less than five (I'm
one of them - fortunately I have exclusive access to a pretty good
private glider).
Looks like most members of my club regard gliding as a pretty
recreational sport - few of them are ambitious.

Maybe one cause for that is that we have a very good social life (and
an own club house) - on weekends there's always an afternoon tea,
dinner and lunch, lots of wifes and children around. Many good causes
to land and have a coffee and some self-made cake...
I guess this is what makes many German clubs different from US clubs:
The social life often plays a part that is nearly as impoortant as the
flying.

At 01:25 01 February 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

BTW: At the moment the entire German 15m-class national team consists
of pilots of my club
I'm pretty content with the situation.

Am I safe to assume that all of these guys have been flying their own
gliders rather than club equipment?

Maybe one cause for that is that we have a very good social life (and
an own club house) - on weekends there's always an afternoon tea,
dinner and lunch, lots of wifes and children around. Many good causes
to land and have a coffee and some self-made cake...
I guess this is what makes many German clubs different from US clubs:
The social life often plays a part that is nearly as important as the
flying.

There are *some* clubs in the US that make the social aspects an
attractive part of the activity. At Blairstown, we do OK - on any decent
day you will find anywhere from four to a dozen folks hanging around the
field after the flying is over, drinking beer and BSing about what great
pilots we all are. Caesar Creek, Texas, Chillhowee, and many others have
very nice facilities. There seems to be some critical number that has to
be reached before this sort of thing can happen. Age also has something
to do with it. Our little group in Somerset has an average age probably
about half of what it is in Blairstown. The younger folks have families,
responsibilities, and even actual social lives beyond the airport, so they
are less inclined to stick around when flying ends.

Jim Beckman

On Feb 1, 9:30*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 01:25 01 February 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

BTW: At the moment the entire *German 15m-class national team consists
of pilots of my club
I'm pretty content with the situation.

Am I safe to assume that all of these guys have been flying their own
gliders rather than club equipment? *

Maybe one cause for that is that we have a very good social life (and
an own club house) - on weekends there's always an afternoon tea,
dinner and lunch, lots of wifes and children around. Many good causes
to land and have a coffee and some self-made cake...
I guess this is what makes many German clubs different from US clubs:
The social life often plays a part that is nearly as important as the
flying.

There are *some* clubs in the US that make the social aspects an
attractive part of the activity. *At Blairstown, we do OK - on any decent
day you will find anywhere from four to a dozen folks hanging around the
field after the flying is over, drinking beer and BSing about what great
pilots we all are. *Caesar Creek, Texas, Chillhowee, *and many others have
very nice facilities. *There seems to be some critical number that has to
be reached before this sort of thing can happen. *Age also has something
to do with it. *Our little group in Somerset has an average age probably
about half of what it is in Blairstown. *The younger folks have families,
responsibilities, and even actual social lives beyond the airport, so they
are less inclined to stick around when flying ends.

Jim Beckman

As one of the "younger" guys with a wife and family, I do believe one
of the critical issues we face in many US clubs is indeed the lack of
anything for the non-flying members to do while dad (or mom) is up
flying. Having travelled pretty extensively and visited about a
dozen clubs in Europe (UK, Sweden, Germany, and Switzerland) I'm
struck by how many of them (pretty much all that I've visited) have a
great winch operation, a "real" clubhouse, "real" maintenance hanger
(drool), and facilities for caravans (RVs). With all of the
amenities, a weekend at the field tends to look a bit less like
torture. Yeah, it may not exactly be the #1 choice for the gang, but
at least it's sellable when compared to say, hanging out at home all
weekend. When I was in England last week on a cold and rainy weekend
(i.e. pretty much a typical day), there was a huge amount of
activity at both clubs I visited. People were hanging out for lunch,
working on gliders, etc. even when there was no flying going on.

So, I do believe a lot of it comes back to land. Specifically, the
fact that land use policy (or lack thereof) in the US means that a
flat piece of land within say 90 minutes drive of most major
metropolitan areas is going to run into the several $milions. For
instance, a 30 acre property in a place equidistant from say NYC and
Philadelphia would set you back about $1M minimum... if you could even
find a town that would let you put in an airport. If you look at
the largest clubs in the US, almost without exception they are the
ones that had the foresight to secure their futures back in the 60s or
70s by purchasing their own land. Those that didn't continue to
limp along as they share busy public use airports and struggle with
the demands made by the airport owner/operator.

Now, I'm not saying that this is the ONLY reason nor is it an excuse
for some of the other trends, but I believe that a lack of a "place to
call our own" inhibits all but a few clubs in the US from hitting that
critical mass that it takes to fund the sorts of fleets and activities
that European clubs have. I'm certainly open to counter arguments.

At 15:27 01 February 2009, Papa3 wrote:

So, I do believe a lot of it comes back to land. Specifically, the
fact that land use policy (or lack thereof) in the US means that a
flat piece of land within say 90 minutes drive of most major
metropolitan areas is going to run into the several $milions. For
instance, a 30 acre property in a place equidistant from say NYC and
Philadelphia would set you back about $1M minimum...

Do you happen to know how taxes affect US clubs that own their own fields?
I suppose it varies from state to state, but some of these clubs have
pretty valuable pieces of land. Being set up as a non-profit organization
might help some, but I don't know if it would exempt the group from
taxes.

On the other hand, the way to save money is to be a church. Any club that
could set itself up as a religion would have it made. Maybe the Reverend
Charlie Spratt (or should I say Father Charlie?) would be interested in
consecrating a few bishops around the country to establish branches of the
Church of the Rising Air. Yeah, that's the way to go. It worked great
for L. Ron Hubbard.

Jim Beckman (Rev.-to-be)

On Feb 2, 7:00*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 15:27 01 February 2009, Papa3 wrote:

So, I do believe a lot of it comes back to land. * Specifically, the
fact that land use policy (or lack thereof) in the US means that a
flat piece of land within say 90 minutes drive of most major
metropolitan areas is going to run into the several $milions. * *For
instance, a 30 acre property in a place equidistant from say NYC and
Philadelphia would set you back about $1M minimum...

Do you happen to know how taxes affect US clubs that own their own fields?
*I suppose it varies from state to state, but some of these clubs have
pretty valuable pieces of land. *Being set up as a non-profit organization
might help some, but I don't know if it would exempt the group from
taxes.

On the other hand, the way to save money is to be a church. *Any club that
could set itself up as a religion would have it made. *Maybe the Reverend
Charlie Spratt (or should I say Father Charlie?) would be interested in
consecrating a few bishops around the country to establish branches of the
Church of the Rising Air. *Yeah, that's the way to go. *It worked great
for L. Ron Hubbard.

Jim Beckman (Rev.-to-be)

18-20 US SSA chapters are 501c(3) charitable, tax exempt, non-profit
organizations and I believe one large club is currently in the process
of seeking the determination. There are additional foundations acting
as pass through agents and a couple that own the gliderports and lease
to clubs. At least on other medium sized club is exploring the
topic. In an overview of a couple that own their gliderports, they
are about $30,000/year better off as a result through real and sales
tax exemptions and charitable donations. You are correct that not all
localities or states allow full real property tax exemptions, but many
have non-profit rate schedules.

The topic requires some education. The SSA Clubs and Chapters
Committee is willing to offer insight, guidance, and possibly
assistance, but the effort and benefit belong to the club and
hopefully to the growth of soaring.

Frank Whiteley

On 1 Feb 2009 14:30:04 GMT, Jim Beckman
wrote:


Am I safe to assume that all of these guys have been flying their own
gliders rather than club equipment?

Nowadays they all have their own gliders, but they only bought them
after they had already been in the national team. Until then they flew
the club's gliders.


There are *some* clubs in the US that make the social aspects an
attractive part of the activity. At Blairstown, we do OK - on any decent
day you will find anywhere from four to a dozen folks hanging around the
field after the flying is over, drinking beer and BSing about what great
pilots we all are. Caesar Creek, Texas, Chillhowee, and many others have
very nice facilities. There seems to be some critical number that has to
be reached before this sort of thing can happen. Age also has something
to do with it. Our little group in Somerset has an average age probably
about half of what it is in Blairstown. The younger folks have families,
responsibilities, and even actual social lives beyond the airport, so they
are less inclined to stick around when flying ends.


And I guess that most members have quite a long way top drive to your
airfield, right? That's a general advantage of Europe: High population
density, hence most members live close to the airefield.