asymetric warfare

(ZZBunker) wrote in message om...
Chad Irby wrote in message ...
In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

Are all of them easy to degrade? Even spread spectrum or frequency
hopping ones?

You should remember that "spread spectrum" is not synonymous with
"unjammable" or "undetectable." As far as that goes, some wideband
jamming techniques can be very effective against normal spread spectrum
communications. There are some major limitations that come with spread
spectrum, mostly having to do with power versus range versus noise.

Frequency hopping is pretty good for keeping people from hearing what
you're saying, but once you know the general band they're working on,
you can either jam them with suitable wideband frequencies, jump on
their frequencies before the receiver can lock on ("fast" jamming) or a
number of other moves.

You can defeat these ECM moves, but the counter-countermeasures cost a
*lot* more money than the countermeasures. And, once again, you're
getting into a technical war with a country that spends a *lot* of money
on that sort of thing.

It doesn't matter what the US spends a lot of money on.
Since what the the idiots don't spend a lot of money is
attenna design.

Who are the idiots? I know a lot of multipath antenna companies and
the contracts for NSA and the services just provide spill over five
years later for the remnants. And the antenna designers are often
'foreigners'.

An except for the paperwork, the FBI's counter-countermeasures
are in the same boat as the CIA's Blackbirds, and the
NSA's typewriter museam:

And as dead as the idiot green grass, and Baltimore Orieole
moron fans they're made out of.

**** toku deska?

That's simply follows from the fact that the
antenna's they designed for RADAR are like
most US Army Radar antenna's. They were designed
by clerks, for jerks, for the soon to be
repaved California desert.

See above. The U.S. uses real ees to design their antennas, some
design six before breakfast just to keep the pencil moving. You aren't
trying to receive with a transmit antenna are you? And you should see
a doctor, you either are very sick or very hip.

Penta writes:

On 24 Dec 03 10:27:36 -0500, "Ash Wyllie" wrote:

John Schilling opined

Chad Irby writes:

Out of the tens of thousands of cannons sitting on the north side of the
border, anyone want to bet that no more than a couple of hundred
actually get to fire? Especially with a few dozen MLRS launchers and a
couple of hundred attack aircraft cranking out a few million
submunitions across their firing positions... while reducing their
command centers to smoking holes in the ground and jamming
communications.

How do you jam a homing pigeon?

Big magnet.

More to the point, I thought carrier pigeons were extinct?

Passenger pigeons are extinct, but they were never relevant for this
sort of thing. Carrier/Homing pigeons are doing just fine.


I know homing pigeons aren't, but I thought they weren't useful for
communications purposes?

Hey, I;ll have you know you can run the internet by carrier pigeon,
per RFC 1149

http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/

Carrier pigeons are and always have been useful for communications
purposes when other channels are not available, and are one of many
legitimate rebuttals to the mindless, "we can shut down all their
electronics, so their armies will just sit around waiting to die"
bit.

High bandwidth and low latency they are not, but adequate for getting
out the "Execute War Plan Blue ASAP" message to people who already have
their part of War Plan Blue in sealed envelopes on-site.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

Peter Stickney wrote:

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
"a425couple" wrote:


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in

When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Where does this quote come from?

Churchill one would assume...

Manitoba? Which one of the bears said that?

Winnie "The Pooh" Spencer, a very political animal, if you ask me (I
know you haven't).
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Penta wrote:

On 24 Dec 03 10:27:36 -0500, "Ash Wyllie" wrote:

John Schilling opined

Chad Irby writes:

Out of the tens of thousands of cannons sitting on the north side of the
border, anyone want to bet that no more than a couple of hundred
actually get to fire? Especially with a few dozen MLRS launchers and a
couple of hundred attack aircraft cranking out a few million
submunitions across their firing positions... while reducing their
command centers to smoking holes in the ground and jamming
communications.

How do you jam a homing pigeon?

Big magnet.

More to the point, I thought carrier pigeons were extinct?

I know homing pigeons aren't, but I thought they weren't useful for
communications purposes?

Same species, both of them: _Columba livia_ or the rock dove. If the
buildings on the Spark Street Mall in Ottawa are any indication, they
are not going to be extinct any time before we are. Their main
redeeming quality is that the local peregrine falcons think them good
eating.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:46:33 GMT, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:

Peter Stickney wrote:

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
"a425couple" wrote:


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in

When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Where does this quote come from?

Churchill one would assume...

Manitoba? Which one of the bears said that?

Winnie "The Pooh" Spencer, a very political animal, if you ask me (I
know you haven't).

Winnie was from White River Ontario but emigrated to the UK with
his unit, the Second Canadian Infantry Brigade. When the unit was
posted to France he took up residence in the London Zoo where he
lived until 1934.

Peter Skelton

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:39:05 GMT, Charles Gray wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 01:37:20 GMT, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

(phil hunt) wrote:

:The UK has very small armed forced considering the size of the
:country's defence budget. Compare the UK (Population 59
:million, spends 2.5% of GDP on arms) ordering 220 Typhoons whereas
:Sweden (population 9 million, spends 2% of GDP on arms) can order
:almost as many (204) Gripens. Even taking into account that Britain
:spends a larger proportion of its defense budget on its navy, and
:the Typhoon's unit cost is larger than the Gripen's, there's
:something wrong here.

Britain spends money on things that Sweden does not, of course.
Strategic weaponry is expensive to develop and maintain.

Not to mention the abilty to quickly deploy-- how long woudl it take
Sweden to move a unit of soldiers to the Middle East, or move them
prepared to fight at the end of the journey.

If there for a real need for them to deploy -- such as an invasion
of an EU country (for example in a future scenario where Turkey is
in the EU), they would no doubt go by road.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

(John Schilling) wrote:

High bandwidth and low latency they are not, but adequate for getting
out the "Execute War Plan Blue ASAP" message to people who already have
their part of War Plan Blue in sealed envelopes on-site.

Assuming the people who are sending the messages have already trained
the birds to fly to the various locations...

They are a valid backup method for some uses, but one that takes
considerable work to establish and maintain.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.

Andrew Chaplin wrote:


Same species, both of them: _Columba livia_ or the rock dove. If the
buildings on the Spark Street Mall in Ottawa are any indication, they
are not going to be extinct any time before we are. Their main
redeeming quality is that the local peregrine falcons think them good
eating.

Small nit here Andrew...isn't it "Sparks Street" vice "Spark
Street"?...
--

-Gord.

Andrew Chaplin wrote:

Peter Stickney wrote:

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
"a425couple" wrote:


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in

When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Where does this quote come from?

Churchill one would assume...

Manitoba? Which one of the bears said that?

Winnie "The Pooh" Spencer, a very political animal, if you ask me (I
know you haven't).

Damn...Andrew beat me to it.


--

-Gord.

(Derek Lyons) writes:

(John Schilling) wrote:

High bandwidth and low latency they are not, but adequate for getting
out the "Execute War Plan Blue ASAP" message to people who already have
their part of War Plan Blue in sealed envelopes on-site.

Assuming the people who are sending the messages have already trained
the birds to fly to the various locations...

They are a valid backup method for some uses, but one that takes
considerable work to establish and maintain.


Yes, but the NKPA has had nothing *to* do for fifty years, except prepare
for a massive battle with the US/ROK across a narrow and fixed frontier.
If they want carrier pigeons as a backup, they can set up and maintain
the network. If they don't have a backup carrier-pigeon network, it's
because they are confident that they have alternate methods that are
even more robust in the face of all the usual US countermeasures.

Given their predilection for digging deep, I wonder if there's such a
thing as a carrier mole :-)


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *