Sad day for Mxsmanic

On Mar 2, 6:19*pm, Ibby wrote:

The NAV/RAD page
on the FMC can easily be setup as instructed and the aircraft can be
vectored by ATC on an intercept course

Ibby

Lbby,

Sounds like you do have a reasonable head on your shoulders so
hopefully you will get the gist of my post..

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies. Passengers seeing this
starts panicking. The FA's in turn have enough wits about them after
finding the dead bodies call into the cabin is there anybody in the
plane that is a pilot. Plane now descending through 15000 feet.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm? There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm. To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal. Clicking on the knob to tune the radio, moving
my mouse just a little bit without my head turnign ain't the real
deal.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics. It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. Flying an
approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical sensations
of IMC. Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

BeechSundowner writes:

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Since the aircraft is on autopilot, there will be no lurch, unless CWS or CWP
are enabled by control movements (depends on the aircraft).

It doesn't work like you see in the movies, nor does it work like a Sundowner,
for that matter (I presume this is the aircraft with which you are familiar).

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies.

Depending on jurisdiction and airline and aircraft, there may be a digital
code that the lead FA can enter to open the door to the cockpit.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

They also don't descend below the altitude set on the MCP. The descent will
stop at the altitude cleared by ATC.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm?

Absolutely. And the FMC need not necessarily even be used, since it's
possible to follow vectors and configure the aircraft for landing without it.

Of course, pilot incapacitation specifically during descent is even less
likely than pilot incapacitation in general.

There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

As I've said, this isn't a Sundowner.

It's pretty straightforward to configure most airliners for autoland. It can
be done by following a few simple instructions. Interaction with the FMC may
or may not be required.

The aircraft can be partially configured as soon as a runway is assigned.
This would likely occur after contact with approach controllers. If it isn't
already in place when the pilots are incapacitated, it's easy to enter.

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

Adrenalin is not a problem.

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

I agree. But you could find them easily with a bit of help from someone over
the radio.

I'm not a pilot, but I could probably find the knobs much more easily than
you, since I'm actually familiar with the cockpits of several airliners.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm.

No, it's not, at least for someone of normal intelligence.

You vastly overestimate the difficulty of flying, particularly flying that
involves the manipulation of systems rather than yoke and rudder. Landing an
airliner is a matter of procedures (particularly autolanding) rather than
seat-of-the-pants barnstorming.

To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

I agree, since it sounds like you've never studied it at all, and it certainly
doesn't work like the tiny little plane that you fly.

But, hopefully, you could follow instructions and land the airliner, just like
anyone else. You would not need any previous experience with flying, just the
ability to do as you are told. If you attempted to hand-fly the airplane on
the mistaken assumption that your limited experience with a tiny plane would
enable you to do this, however, you might get into trouble.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

No, I don't think so, not at all. People yell and scream in the movies; most
people aren't like that in real life, in emergency situations (in any group
there might be a screamer, but that's normally an exception to the rule).

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal.

What are the differences? Garmin's simulators work just like the real
thing--that's the whole idea.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

What does this have to do with landing an airliner?

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics.

It doesn't have to. Everyone today has years of experience in turning knobs
and manipulating other controls. A non-pilot wouldn't have experience in
operating flight controls of an airliner, but fortunately that would not be
required.

It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

That might be true in your tiny plane, but rest assured, in an airliner, the
autopilot will indeed maintain level flight, and much, much more.

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X.

With which add-ons?

Flying an approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical
sensations of IMC.

You don't need physical sensations. In fact, you're supposed to ignore
physical sensations in IMC.

Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

I've been in IMC in aircraft many times. It didn't change my perspective on
clouds.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

No you're not, dumb ass, you have never left your desk.

No you're not, dumb ass, you have never left your desk.

I think he means as a passenger ;-(

Ibby

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 04:59:33 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

BeechSundowner writes:

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Since the aircraft is on autopilot, there will be no lurch, unless CWS or CWP
are enabled by control movements (depends on the aircraft).

Which instantly and reinforces the fact that you know *nothing*
because even the PMDG and LDS simulations all include the automatic
disconnect which happens when enough force is excerted on the control
column, a-la what would happen when the pilots keel over on it, or
grab it to execute a TCAS commanded evasive manuver (obviously in
addition to the AP disco button).

Just go look it up! writes:

Which instantly and reinforces the fact that you know *nothing*
because even the PMDG and LDS simulations all include the automatic
disconnect which happens when enough force is excerted on the control
column, a-la what would happen when the pilots keel over on it, or
grab it to execute a TCAS commanded evasive manuver (obviously in
addition to the AP disco button).

What makes you believe that an incapacitated pilot would hit the yoke with
enough force to disengage the autopilot? "Airplane" is a Hollywood work of
fiction, not real life.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:35:37 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Just go look it up! writes:

Which instantly and reinforces the fact that you know *nothing*
because even the PMDG and LDS simulations all include the automatic
disconnect which happens when enough force is excerted on the control
column, a-la what would happen when the pilots keel over on it, or
grab it to execute a TCAS commanded evasive manuver (obviously in
addition to the AP disco button).

What makes you believe that an incapacitated pilot would hit the yoke with
enough force to disengage the autopilot? "Airplane" is a Hollywood work of
fiction, not real life.

Because unlike you I've been there and know it only takes 15-20lb of
pressure to disconnect the autopilot? The postulated scenario is well
within reason that the system would have disconnected, "Airplane" or
not.

Hell, the theroy is that Eastern Airlines flight 401 crashed because
the Captain bumped the yoke while just turning to talk to the copilot
and didn't know he had changed modes. It happened.

You don't even understand the basics of the systems that you
supposedly simulate "just like real life" and come here and try and
tell real pilots who use this stuff day in and day out that you know
more than them, because playing MSFS is a suitable substitute for real
world experience and knoweldge? I knew it was a mistake to put an
expiration date on your entry in my killfile.

Just go look it up! writes:

Because unlike you I've been there and know it only takes 15-20lb of
pressure to disconnect the autopilot?

Why would incapacitated pilots be exerting pressure on the yoke?

You don't even understand the basics of the systems that you
supposedly simulate "just like real life" and come here and try and
tell real pilots who use this stuff day in and day out ...

Virtually nobody here uses this stuff day in and day out. Most of the pilots
here are low-time private pilots, although they might fancy themselves
captains of the sky.

... that you know more than them, because playing MSFS is a suitable
substitute for real world experience and knoweldge?

When it comes to airliner systems, it's a lot more informative than the
baseless speculation I'm seeing from tin-toy pilots here. And I add research
to that, which apparently is also a very rare practice among many posters
here.

You don't learn these systems by trial and error in the aircraft.

In article ,
says...



Why would incapacitated pilots be exerting pressure on the yoke?

Because they fell over on it. A well documented scenario in the real world.

Virtually nobody here uses this stuff day in and day out. Most of the pilots
here are low-time private pilots, although they might fancy themselves
captains of the sky.

Yes, by definition, they are. Once you become quualified and certificated and
assume control of an aircraft, you are pilot in command. What's really
disturbing is that there are people without any of the above qualificfations or
experience who consider themselves qualified to pass judgement. Such people are
potentially dangerous.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Just go look it up! writes:

Because unlike you I've been there and know it only takes 15-20lb of
pressure to disconnect the autopilot?

Why would incapacitated pilots be exerting pressure on the yoke?

You don't even understand the basics of the systems that you
supposedly simulate "just like real life" and come here and try and
tell real pilots who use this stuff day in and day out ...

Virtually nobody here uses this stuff day in and day out. Most of the
pilots
here are low-time private pilots, although they might fancy themselves
captains of the sky.

... that you know more than them, because playing MSFS is a suitable
substitute for real world experience and knoweldge?

When it comes to airliner systems, it's a lot more informative than the
baseless speculation I'm seeing from tin-toy pilots here. And I add
research
to that, which apparently is also a very rare practice among many posters
here.

You don't learn these systems by trial and error in the aircraft.

Then why are you hear dumb ass. Do you think you come here to teach!

You're just the village retard.