*********A DEFENCE FOR MXMORAN***********

BeechSundowner writes:

Again, don't forget that human part. I have no clue where the
altitude hold is. You may know from the hours and hours of sim
experiences, but in the real world, you expect me to find a button
that will automatically level the plane. There are billions of
buttons to look at.

No, there are only a dozen or so, and they are clearly marked, and all you
need is someone to tell you where to look.

In this case, it's pretty easy: Look along the top of the glare shield until
you find the word ALT, then look down until you find the word HOLD, and press
that button.

I suppose it might seem complex to the pilot of a tiny plane, but it's not
really that difficult.

I drive a single engine land airplane. You think I have any clue what
you are talking about?

No, I don't. And it's really hard to comment on things that one doesn't have
a clue about, isn't it?

You are in a jetliner plane about to buy the farm.

No. Incapacitation of the pilots does not cause the plane to crash. This
isn't a Piper Cub.

You may wish to review the accident report for Helios Airways Flight 522,
which illustrates what happens when the pilots are both incapacitated in a
modern airliner.

No common Joe, or even a pilot like myself will be there to
"save the day" All the simulation in the world won't take away the
vast array of gauges and dials, and buttons for me to find the
altitude hold button in a reasonable time.

Anyone of reasonable intelligence can find it within seconds when told where
to look (and eventually even if not told).

Imagine yourself over the
radio talking to someone and saying find the altitude hold button and
guiding them to the right place?

Very easy.

Oh yeah we talk in a walkie talkie world, which slows down communications.

How?

Only one person talks at one time.

In a normal conversation, only one person talks at one time.

It doesn't for me when I am in an emergency situation trying to save
my skin in a plane I never sat in the front seat.. Too many buttons,
remember for me to find that right button you want me to push, pull or
twist? I fly a Sundowner, which has a vast array of buttons to a non
pilot. Could / would they know where my autopilot is by description.
I seriously doubt it!

I don't. But perhaps we move in different circles.

Uhh, I am in a plane totally unfamiliar. You will instruct me to use
the MCP. I have no clue what that is. I have fear for my life, you
think you would be able to walk me through which panel is the MCP? I
doubt it.

Well, if you happen to be the one who replaces the pilots, I suppose the
flight is doomed, based on what you are saying. But a lot of other people
could handle it. Do not assume that everyone shares your handicaps.

You wouldn't say push a
button on the MCP. You would say it in plain English and describe it
in plain English.

Find ALT along the top edge of the instrument panel, near the middle. Just
below that is a button marked HOLD. Press that.

Elapsed time: 2 seconds.

ATC seperates traffic. Remember, I am descending through 10000 feet,
time is not on my side.

Once you press ALT HOLD, you are not descending any more.

I don't think they will know what control knob for me to push, pull
or push, and even if they did, they just can't point to it, they would
need to be able to describe it precisely within the 1000's of other
knobs that sit in front of me.

Do you panic easily? I could explain to a ten-year-old where to find the
button, and he'd find it and press it without any difficulty. (In fact, I've
seen ten-year-olds following instructions quite well in full-motion sims.)

But remember the vast array of buttons and knobs.

The array is not vast, and everything is clearly marked, precisely to make it
all easy to figure out.

I never been in a 747.

So I've surmised.

Let me give you a real deal example of how something electronic can
draw a brain fart, and I posted my experiences. I was in a plane with
a Garmin 330 transponder. Transponder was not sending the right
altitude. I did not know how to stop Mode C. Something very simple
became a major traffic hazard around me.

Not knowing how to operate the equipment in your aircraft sounds like a FAR
violation to me.

On my transponder, I have a on setting where it will transmit Mode A,
not C. Easy enough for me to do. Now, I tell you stop my mode C by
twisting the knob from alt to on. Would you be able to figure that
out in the vast array of gauges, buttons and knobs?

Sure.

You have never been in my plane and all your vast knowlege of a 747
is now tossed out the window.

All I need is someone who knows the inside of your plane.

I would suspect, eventually you will find it from your
simulation knowlege, but the average non pilot will have no clue what
or where the transponder is much less turn a knob from alt to on.

That's why someone else has to tell him this.

You are missing my point.

You're not answering the question, which I assume means that you haven't used
any payware aircraft. So you've never been in a real 747, you've never used a
decent simulator of a 747, and you apparently have not read anything on the
747. And yet you're arguing about whether or not someone can land it.

Why is it okay for you to comment on such things with so little knowledge
thereof, if it isn't okay for me to comment on them with a much better
knowledge base?

All the simulation in the world doesn't help me when the rubber meets
the road.

Simulation helps a great deal. Simulation saves lives, in fact, by allowing
pilots to practice things that would be too rare or expensive or dangerous to
practice in real life.

Simulation is great for learning procedures. It will not save my skin
in a 747.

It would probably save mine.

As stated
earlier, the plane in the approach phase probably has not been
configured for autoland. I doubt anybody would be able to tell John Q
public which panel to look at to set it up for autoland in the short
time before the farm is bought.

It's not hard to configure for autoland.

You have it backwards..... It's the sensation of movement that will
make you a lawn dart and learning to ignore that sensation of movement
is the key.

When you are in a sim that doesn't move, you learn very quickly to depend on
instruments alone.

Again, talk to a pilot that is instrument rated. Until you do so, you
have no clue what flying is all about just on what you say above..

I'm talking to a pilot who largely admits having no clue about 747s, but that
doesn't stop him from talking about them.

Mxsmanic wrote:
BeechSundowner writes:

Again, don't forget that human part. I have no clue where the
altitude hold is. You may know from the hours and hours of sim
experiences, but in the real world, you expect me to find a button
that will automatically level the plane. There are billions of
buttons to look at.

No, there are only a dozen or so, and they are clearly marked, and all you
need is someone to tell you where to look.

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...4Q8/0314046/L/

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...4Q8/0314046/L/

Looks just like the sim.

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.

That's okay, I know what they are and what they do already.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...4Q8/0314046/L/

Looks just like the sim.

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.

That's okay, I know what they are and what they do already.

Yeah, so what?

I noticed you snipped the part where you were wrong, i.e. where you stated
there were only a dozen of so switches and buttons.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Mar 4, 2:15*pm, wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Wrong, try again.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...Boeing-747-4Q8....

Looks just like the sim.

Not shown are the dozens of switches and buttons on the overhead
panel.

That's okay, I know what they are and what they do already.

Yeah, so what?

I noticed you snipped the part where you were wrong, i.e. where you stated
there were only a dozen of so switches and buttons.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

It's been two hours staring at that screen (NOT) and I am still
looking for the altitude hold button LOL I'za along with the 100's of
passengers would have been dead 118 minutes ago looking for that durn
thing.

Is it a button, toggle switch, twist knob or what? Gee, imagine ATC
describing to me where to look as gravity's unyielding force is
applied against the airplane current course.

MAY DAY, MAY DAY!!! Oh dang it, ATC hung up the phone because John
Q pilot like myself didn't know where the altitude hold button was.

It's been two hours staring at that screen (NOT) and I am still
looking for the altitude hold button LOL *I'za along with the 100's of
passengers would have been dead 118 minutes ago looking for that durn
thing.

See the '10000' on the MCP (the linear panel along the length of the
window)
Below that is a knob rotate it left to assign a lower altitude and
right to increase, below this knob is a button which clearly says
'HOLD'
There is also a 'HOLD' button below Heading too which means the
aircraft can retain a set heading or altitude whilst you change to the
next desired, pressing Heading Select will result in the aircraft
turning at a time of your choosing rather than the second you touch
the knob and VS (Vertical Speed) switch will start the aircraft
climbing or descending at a choosen rate when this is pressed too.

Ibby

writes:

Yeah, so what?

So I'm better informed than most of the people arguing with me.

I noticed you snipped the part where you were wrong, i.e. where you stated
there were only a dozen of so switches and buttons.

It depends on which part of the panel you are looking at. Should I count
everything back to the cockpit door?

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Yeah, so what?

So I'm better informed than most of the people arguing with me.

Yeah, sure you are.

I noticed you snipped the part where you were wrong, i.e. where you stated
there were only a dozen of so switches and buttons.

It depends on which part of the panel you are looking at.

Hardly.

Your statement was obvious nonsense from looking at the picture of
a real airplane.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Your statement was obvious nonsense from looking at the picture of
a real airplane.

Afraid MX is correct on this one. The overhead panel on 737's and
747's handle the IRS's (Inertial Referencing System, these are like
GPS), Hydraulics Systems, Battery and Electrical power system, fuel
control systems, engine autostart systems and continuous ignition if
visible moisture is present,anti-ice, pressurisation and air
conditioning systems, fire control system and internal and external
lighting controls. They do NOT control the atitude and etc of the
aircraft and require little input after takeoff. The Flight
Management Computer controls the majority of the flight by taking
control of the autopilot and autothrottle systems. The Mode Control
Panel which has 13 buttons, 4 knobs and 2 switches for the Flight
Director and Autothrottle are really all that is required for input to
manually over-ride the active flightplan in the FMC.

Airline pilots use this method when vectored into an airport by ATC,
or when given specific headings to follow or altitude and speed
restrictions

Ibby

writes:

Your statement was obvious nonsense from looking at the picture of
a real airplane.

Not necessary. I can just look in the sim.