Area bombing is not a dirty word.

"B2431" wrote in message
...

snip

You can see where I am going with this. I wonder how many airmen would
have
lived if the Allies changed their methods. I wonder how much shorther the
war
would have been if oil production and distribution alone were the sole
primary
targets early in the war. Secondary targets would be airfields and flack.

I think you'd have to toss transportation into the mix right after the
petroleum industry. IMO the biggest positive effects of the combined bombing
offensive were in the end (1) tying up German manpower and resources in the
defense effort, (2) drastic reduction in German petroleum production
(belated effort, but still effective in the end), and (3) making
transportation even less effective (given the impact of #2) through
disruption of their rail and (less so) road nets, and severely disrupting
transport capability during the critical period leading to and immediately
after D-Day. As to airfields--I doubt there was as much value for the
heavies in that arena, as any flat cow pasture could serve as a fighter
strip in those days (and often did), making the finding of them a bit
difficult. Flak is a non-starter, at least for the level bombers, as the
bombing accuracy of the day just could not ensure taking out individual flak
positions--when your CEP is approaching a mile or more, SEAD just is not a
realistic mission, especilayy when viewed against other targets that could
be effectively engaged (industrial).

Brooks


Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

One thing that is often levied agaionst the bombing campaigns is the
fact that German production increased as the war came to an end (at
least until the last few days when industry was being overrun).
But, the reality is not so clear. WE need to realize that Germany
did not go to a full wartime production footing until 1943-44, and as
such, there wsa a great deal of "fat" in the industry that could be
cut-- in other words, while bombing did not stop the increase of
production, that was also due to the fact that the germans were only
beginning to introduce the wartime production measures that had been
par for the course in the U.S. and England from 1939 (england) and
1941 (US) on.
The German industrial expansion was dramatically slowed by the
bombing campaign, as many, many books I have on German air projects
contian notes like " The project was abandoned after the
prototype/engines/airframe/fill in the blank was destroyed by U.s.
bombing.

Subject: Area bombing is not a dirty word.
From: Charles Gray


One thing that is often levied agaionst the bombing campaigns is the
fact that German production increased as the war came to an end (at
least until the last few days when industry was being overrun).

The reason German production increased is because we stopped bombing production
facilites and switched to oil knowing that they could make all they wanted
to,but without oil could never use any of it. So let them waste their labor and
facilites on turning out equipment that could never be used.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

The reason German production increased is because we stopped bombing
production
facilites and switched to oil knowing that they could make all they wanted
to,but without oil could never use any of it.

Well...kind of. Ike wanted to drastically reduce German mobility once Allied
ground forces were on the continent, so he urged the elevation in priority of
POL targets in late 1943. It obviously turned out to have a greater strategic
value, but many historians believe that had Ike not asked Hap Arnold to elevate
the priority of POL, it may not have been done. Ike was thinking tactically,
but the results were on the strategic level.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Area bombing is not a dirty word.
From: Charles Gray


One thing that is often levied agaionst the bombing campaigns is the
fact that German production increased as the war came to an end (at
least until the last few days when industry was being overrun).

The reason German production increased is because we stopped bombing
production
facilites and switched to oil knowing that they could make all they
wanted
to,but without oil could never use any of it. So let them waste their
labor and
facilites on turning out equipment that could never be used.

So you are saying that ALL the bombs dropped during that period were dropped
on oil targets! I would love to here your source for that.

Granted the Germans were short of POL at the end, however, they were short
of everything else as well. I can find few instances of missions being
cancelled solely due to lack of POL, and the few examples that do exist seem
to be local problems getting the fuel to the correct place rather than
because the fuel did not exist.

ubject: Area bombing is not a dirty word.
From: "Bill Phillips"
Date: 1/5/04 11:44 AM Pacific Standard Time

o you are saying that ALL the bombs dropped during that period were dropped
on oil targets! I would love to here your source for that.

I never said that, You said that.

can find few instances of missions being
cancelled solely due to lack of POL, and the

You didn't look hard enough.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
ubject: Area bombing is not a dirty word.
From: "Bill Phillips"
Date: 1/5/04 11:44 AM Pacific Standard Time

o you are saying that ALL the bombs dropped during that period were
dropped
on oil targets! I would love to here your source for that.

I never said that, You said that.

You said "we stopped bombing production facilites and switched to oil"

can find few instances of missions being
cancelled solely due to lack of POL, and the

You didn't look hard enough.

Then please find some for me.

"Bill Phillips" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
ubject: Area bombing is not a dirty word.
From: "Bill Phillips"
Date: 1/5/04 11:44 AM Pacific Standard Time

o you are saying that ALL the bombs dropped during that period were
dropped
on oil targets! I would love to here your source for that.

I never said that, You said that.

You said "we stopped bombing production facilites and switched to oil"


Which is a LONG way from saying ALL the bombs dropped
during the period were dropped on oil targets.

Keith

In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"B2431" wrote in message
...

snip

You can see where I am going with this. I wonder how many airmen would
have
lived if the Allies changed their methods. I wonder how much shorther the
war
would have been if oil production and distribution alone were the sole
primary
targets early in the war. Secondary targets would be airfields and flack.

I think you'd have to toss transportation into the mix right after the
petroleum industry.

Let's not forget training, either. Yes, there was a tremendous spurt
in production numbers in 1944, but what use was it when there were no
pilots to fly the airplanes, or crew the submarines or tanks?
What new pilots, or sub crews, or soldiers that could be trained, went
to their units with no operational training whatsoever. Survival at
that point was a matter of luck - they never got the chance to develop
skill.
The German Armed Forces going into 1945 were like an M&M. (Smartie,
for you Brits) A thin, hard shell of veterans surrounding a soft
innter layer.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"B2431" wrote in message
...

snip

You can see where I am going with this. I wonder how many airmen would
have
lived if the Allies changed their methods. I wonder how much shorther
the
war
would have been if oil production and distribution alone were the sole
primary
targets early in the war. Secondary targets would be airfields and
flack.

I think you'd have to toss transportation into the mix right after the
petroleum industry.

Let's not forget training, either. Yes, there was a tremendous spurt
in production numbers in 1944, but what use was it when there were no
pilots to fly the airplanes, or crew the submarines or tanks?
What new pilots, or sub crews, or soldiers that could be trained, went
to their units with no operational training whatsoever. Survival at
that point was a matter of luck - they never got the chance to develop
skill.
The German Armed Forces going into 1945 were like an M&M. (Smartie,
for you Brits) A thin, hard shell of veterans surrounding a soft
innter layer.

True, but the bombing campaign did not target "training", per se. Its effect
on the petroleum situation adversely impacted training, and the attrition of
Luftwaffe pilots defending against the campaign applied additional stress to
the training pipeline. But it would have been very hard to set forth a
bombing campaign during WWII with an objective of degrading the Germans'
ability to train.

Brooks


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster