What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Apr 15, 6:15 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:

YOu and I were taught by different people. A checklist is just that ... a
step by step list of todos so that you don't forget something. It is very
easy for the mind to go through a "familiar list" and be so rote that you
really DID think you were on both mags when you were only on one.

Jim

The quickest thing that disqualified an applicant on any check flight
I ever gave was the non-use or improper use of a checklist.
Dudley Henriques

An admittedly small sample, but I've actually never seen a professional
pilot do a walkaround on an airplane with a checklist in hand. Not even
when I'm watching the A320 FO do a walkaround. I'm sure it happens
though. I've only seen students and pilots on a checkride do that. My
instructor told me to "have the checklist in your hand but you don't
really need to look at it" -- for the preflight.

So -- Dudley and others. Let's be clear here as I am curious. Which
phases of flight do you use the checklist for?

_ preflight planning
_ drive out to the airport
_ preflight examination
_ getting in and getting fastened
_ engine start and post-start
_ pre-taxi
_ runup
_ pre-takeoff
_ climbout
_ approaching a fix on an IFR flight plan
_ cruise (log fuel, check nav, switch tanks)
_ pre-approach ("WIRE")
_ approach
_ pre-landing / landing "GUMPS"
_ clear of runway
_ pre-taxi
_ shutdown ("fuel not on both, master off")
_ post-shutdown ("tie down, pick up your x, y, and z)
_ walk-away ("hobbs, lock gate")

I have a friend that would honestly "x" everything in each column.

I consider myself a pretty safe pilot. Answers for me below. I do a
lot of GUMPS, WIRE, and I use the instrument panel placards (pre-landing
check, etc), in particular, but I am not thinking it is "checklist
usage" unless you have the thing in your hand...

Would I pass your flight test?

_ preflight planning
_ drive out to the airport
_ preflight examination
_x getting in and getting fastened
x_ engine start and post-start
_ pre-taxi
_x runup
_ pre-takeoff
_ climbout
_ approaching a fix on an IFR flight plan
_ pre-approach ("WIRE")
_ approach
_ pre-landing / landing "GUMPS"
_ clear of runway
_ pre-taxi
_ shutdown ("fuel not on both, master off")
_ post-shutdown ("tie down, pick up your x, y, and z)
_ walk-away ("hobbs, lock gate")

I use a lot of flow and mnemonics for the other stuff tho.

Tman.

On Apr 16, 8:39*pm, Tman wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Apr 15, 6:15 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:

YOu and I were taught by different people. *A checklist is just that ... a
step by step list of todos so that you don't forget something. *It is very
easy for the mind to go through a "familiar list" and be so rote that you
really DID think you were on both mags when you were only on one.

Jim

The quickest thing that disqualified an applicant on any check flight
I ever gave was the non-use or improper use of a checklist.
Dudley Henriques

An admittedly small sample, but I've actually never seen a professional
pilot do a walkaround on an airplane with a checklist in hand. *Not even
when I'm watching the A320 FO do a walkaround. *I'm sure it happens
though. *I've only seen students and pilots on a checkride do that. *My
instructor told me to "have the checklist in your hand but you don't
really need to look at it" -- for the preflight.

So -- Dudley and others. *Let's be clear here as I am curious. *Which
phases of flight do you use the checklist for?

_ preflight planning
_ drive out to the airport
_ preflight examination
_ getting in and getting fastened
_ engine start and post-start
_ pre-taxi
_ runup
_ pre-takeoff
_ climbout
_ approaching a fix on an IFR flight plan
_ cruise (log fuel, check nav, switch tanks)
_ pre-approach ("WIRE")
_ approach
_ pre-landing / landing "GUMPS"
_ clear of runway
_ pre-taxi
_ shutdown ("fuel not on both, master off")
_ post-shutdown ("tie down, pick up your x, y, and z)
_ walk-away ("hobbs, lock gate")

I have a friend that would honestly "x" everything in each column.

I consider myself a pretty safe pilot. *Answers for me below. *I do a
lot of GUMPS, WIRE, and I use the instrument panel placards (pre-landing
check, etc), in particular, but I am not thinking it is "checklist
usage" unless you have the thing in your hand...

Would I pass your flight test?

_ preflight planning
_ drive out to the airport
_ preflight examination
_x getting in and getting fastened
x_ engine start and post-start
_ pre-taxi
_x runup
_ pre-takeoff
_ climbout
_ approaching a fix on an IFR flight plan
_ pre-approach ("WIRE")
_ approach
_ pre-landing / landing "GUMPS"
_ clear of runway
_ pre-taxi
_ shutdown ("fuel not on both, master off")
_ post-shutdown ("tie down, pick up your x, y, and z)
_ walk-away ("hobbs, lock gate")

I use a lot of flow and mnemonics for the other stuff tho.

Tman.

I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.

The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.

Each pilot is a product of that pilot's exposure to the learning curve
at any instant in that pilot's career.
How a pilot views the use of checklists varies within this context.
Some overdue checklist use. Some are lax on the subject of checklists.
The good pilot develops an attitude toward flight safety that makes
use of any and all appropriate tools devoted toward that end.
How each pilot uses these tools will in large part be determined by
the habit patterns that pilot has developed through the learning
process (which never ends)
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:

I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.

The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.

OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. Sigh...
T

On Apr 16, 9:51*pm, Tman wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.

The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.

OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. *It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. *Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

*From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. *Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. *A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. *I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. *Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. *Sigh...
T

I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 9:51 pm, Tman wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.

The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.

OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. Sigh...
T

I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And other instructors will vary.

On Apr 16, 11:09*pm, "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...
On Apr 16, 9:51 pm, Tman wrote:



Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.

The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.

OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. Sigh...
T

I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And other instructors will vary.

That is correct.
-DH