Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?

On May 4, 3:12*am, Michael wrote:
Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

Tom's advice is the best general advice you'll find.

For a glider with a non-swiveling tailwheel or tailskid,
in a cross-wind, proper procedure MAY be full
back, to keep the glider tracking straight until
you have good directional control.

There are plenty of gliders where lifting the tail
too soon with even a mild crosswind will cause
an immediate turn into the wind...

Talk to your instructor !
And review the proper procedure
when flying a new type...

Hope that helps,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Tom's advice worked for the first-time 1-26
student pilot I briefed yesterday - absolutely no PIO...

Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.


"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

On May 4, 6:42*am, TonyV wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
* in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
to end up a bit behind the glider.

One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
lot of "it depends" included.

Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
replies that there are many differences that determine the right
answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.

THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
the runway once it gets flying speed.

Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
that in ways that are predictable.

9B

At 17:58 04 May 2009, wrote:
On May 4, 6:42=A0am, TonyV wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the
point,
=A0 in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick
back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this
nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto
the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at
the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
to end up a bit behind the glider.

One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
lot of "it depends" included.

Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
replies that there are many differences that determine the right
answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.

THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
the runway once it gets flying speed.

Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
that in ways that are predictable.

9B
When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
the throttle in the start of the roll.

When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
the throttle in the start of the roll.


Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
throttle application.
Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

BT

Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
throttle application.
Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

I used to fly commercial rides in a 2-33 from a 1500 ft grass runway
with 70 ft trees on one end and a barbed wire fence at the other (about
150 MSL, BTW). You always got an "energetic" start and the nose would
*always* pop up whether you liked it or not. We started the take off
roll with the stick full forward. I would *always* brief the passenger
accordingly.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING