Opinions wanted

"tadaa" wrote in message ...


So were London, Coventry and Liverpool neutral countries?



No but Holland was and that didnt prevent Rotterdam being bombed
by the Luftwaffe

Keith

The Germans made efforts to avoid bombing Warsaw and Rotterdam from
the historical documents I have read. Rotterdam for example, was being
used as a defensive position by the allies and there was actual house
to house combat taking place in the city. The germans used the threat
of aerial bombardment much like nuclear weapons are used today, as a
bargaining tool. In the case of Rotterdam, the Germans were demanding
the surrender of the defending forces. The allied forces, after
waiting much too long, did not sue for surrender terms until the
German bombers were well on their way to target. In any case, the
German bombers could not be called back in time by radio, and the use
of red flares by the ground forces to signal the bombers not to drop
were only partially successful as they were hard to see in the already
smokey and burning city. (due to the fact that the city was a combat
zone) In fact, a large number of the bombers were able to avoid
dropping their bombs when their bombardiers saw that red flares were
being shot into the air. So in fact, the Germans had made many efforts
to avoid attacking Rotterdam. Warsaw and Rotterdam were both cities
that were bombed because of the fact that the defending troops had
bunkered themselves down in the city itself. How can anyone do that
and not expect to be attacked as strictly a military target. In fact,
Germany made every effort not to attack any civilian targets over
Britain until one of their Heinkel He-111 accidentally dropped its
bombs over parts of London i believe and the British in turn decided
to bomb Berlin in a reprisal raid. This is what sparked the beginning
of the "Blitz" and the subsequent bombing of major cities by both
sides.

To Art's original question, I would have to assume that all
diplomatic avenues take place to stop production, and then covert
operations to sabotage the plant be taken. If those were all
unsuccessfull, and assuming the threat of bombardement was stated in
the diplomatic exchanges, I would opt for a highly accurate
dive-bombing strike by a select group of experienced dive-bomber
pilots, and under heavy fighter escort. The use of level bombers
during World War II such as the B-17, B-24, etc. on urban centers, has
always been a very controversial topic due to their inherent lack of
accuracy during WWII and the subsequent collatoral damages caused by
area bombardment. The question is, when is it OK to knowingly and
willingly bomb unarmed and defencless civilians? That kind of question
you could discuss for ever as well.

P.S. Art, I know your probably going to attack me as some kind of Nazi
apologetic *******, but I understand why you feel the way you do and I
will respect you all the same for the service you provided for your
country and mine by fighting against the Axis forces.

Sincerely,
Ryan Muntener


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"tadaa" wrote in message ...


So were London, Coventry and Liverpool neutral countries?



No but Holland was and that didnt prevent Rotterdam being bombed
by the Luftwaffe

Keith

Subject: Opinions wanted
From: (Ryan M.)
Date: 1/8/04 3:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

P.S. Art, I know your probably going to attack me as some kind of Nazi
apologetic *******, but I understand why you feel the way you do and I
will respect you all the same

Nope. No attack. Have a nice day. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Uzytkownik "Ryan M." napisal w wiadomosci
m...
The Germans made efforts to avoid bombing Warsaw and Rotterdam from
the historical documents I have read.

I don't know what kind of historical documents you cite, but they are not
true - at least in Warsaw case. WWII began 1. September 1939 at 4:45 am
Warsaw time. Polish cities (including Warsaw) were bombed from the first day
with He-111 and later (as the front moved) Ju-87. First German troops
achieved Warsaw neigbarhood on 8. September, so between 1. and 8. September
Warsaw WAS NOT defended, because WAS NOT directly attacked. Maybe I should
read your statement 'IF Poland would have been surrended on 1. September
till 5:00 am THEN Warsaw were not bombed'. Sorry, I could not share your
point.

Rotterdam for example, was being
used as a defensive position by the allies and there was actual house
to house combat taking place in the city.

In 1939 Warsaw was not defended house to house. The city suffered damages
and surrended on 28. September. Wounds were deep but Warsaw was still alive.
House to house combat took place in 1943 (19. April-8. May; Warsaw Ghetto
Uprising), in 1944 (1. August-2. October; Warsaw Uprising) and 1945 (17.
January; liberation of Warsaw). German aerial attacks were limited to dive
bombing (in other case they could hit their own troops). After that Warsaw
was 80% destroyed.

[snip...]

Warsaw and Rotterdam were both cities
that were bombed because of the fact that the defending troops had
bunkered themselves down in the city itself.

About Warsaw - see above.

[snip...]

Sincerely,
Ryan Muntener

I hate to tell you that you are not alone. Many 'historicians' claimed
recently that Poland (and Holland in this case) were guilty by themselves
that were attacked. Strange thinking, indeed... If Germans were worried
about destroying Warsaw (Rotterdam, London etc.) THEY COULD SIMPLY NOT TO
INVADE POLAND!!

NO regards, EOT
JasiekS [Jan Skowronski]
Warsaw, Poland

Hello Jan,

I'm sorry you were so offended by my statements. I only briefly
mentioned Warsaw as I did not have any good information at hand to
further clarify on it. And for this reason I should not have said that
there was house to house fighting in Warsaw, my mistake. I stuck
mostly with mentioning the conditions with the bombing of Rotterdam
instead. However, I understand that there are many sources that exist
which blatently contradict themselves on topics such as these. I would
still like to quote three sources I found with a quick search off the
internet.(no books as I am not at home to cite them)

1. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc...08-77-06.shtml

From the Nuremberg Trials...see link for more citation info:

Q. "You never saw any such reactions on their part on these bombings
[Warsaw, Rotterdam, and Coventry], I take it?"

A. "I only know that Warsaw was a fortress which was held by the
Polish Army in very great strength, provided with excellent pieces of
artillery, that the forts were manned, and that two or three times
Adolf Hitler announced that the city should be evacuated by civilians.
That was refused. Only the foreign embassies were evacuated, while an
officer with a flag of truce entered. The Polish Army was in the city
defending it stubbornly in a very dense circle of forts. The outer
forts were very strongly manned and, from the inner town, heavy
artillery was firing towards the outskirts. The fortress of Warsaw was
therefore attacked, also by the Luftwaffe, but only after Hitler's
ultimatum had been rejected."

2. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchi...s_replies.html

Visit this link and scroll down to the area shaded in grey which
discusses the Luftwaffe attacks on Warsaw as well.

3. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...mbing/AP27.htm

Citations used for the writing of this WEB page on also found at the
link above:

"World War II began on September 1, 1939, in Poland when the German
Luftwaffe began to bomb military targets. When Warsaw continued to
fight, German leader Adolf Hitler approved the dropping of five tons
of bombs on the city, hastening Poland�s surrender. As German
tanks rolled through the rest of continental Europe, Hitler used the
example of the bombing of Warsaw to encourage submission. But with
minor exceptions, there were no more bombings of civilian targets on
either side. Hitler even released War Directive #2 that forbade
bombing attacks on France or England except as reprisals."


You wrote:
I hate to tell you that you are not alone. Many 'historicians' claimed
recently that Poland (and Holland in this case) were guilty by themselves
that were attacked. Strange thinking, indeed... If Germans were worried
about destroying Warsaw (Rotterdam, London etc.) THEY COULD SIMPLY NOT TO
INVADE POLAND!!

I never said I believe the Polish were guilty themselves of being
attacked and could not agree with you more that if Hitler had not
invaded Poland the bombing of Warsaw would not have happened. However
I was not and am not trying to debate if Germany should have or should
not have invaded Poland.

The point of this respons is not to start an argument about this
topic, simply to let everyone know that I have read sources that
contradict what was stated by Keith in the prior post regarding
Rotterdam. We could all continue argueing by stating all the sources
which back up our opinion, but this is not my intention by any means.
History is the interpretation of the past and therefore will always be
dependant on how "we" as individuals interpret it.

Finally,

You wrote:
NO regards, EOT
JasiekS [Jan Skowronski]
Warsaw, Poland

I'm not sure why you would write "NO regards" but I will end my
response...

WITH regards,
Ryan Muntener
Vancouver, Canada


"JasiekS" wrote in message ...
Uzytkownik "Ryan M." napisal w wiadomosci
m...
The Germans made efforts to avoid bombing Warsaw and Rotterdam from
the historical documents I have read.

I don't know what kind of historical documents you cite, but they are not
true - at least in Warsaw case. WWII began 1. September 1939 at 4:45 am
Warsaw time. Polish cities (including Warsaw) were bombed from the first day
with He-111 and later (as the front moved) Ju-87. First German troops
achieved Warsaw neigbarhood on 8. September, so between 1. and 8. September
Warsaw WAS NOT defended, because WAS NOT directly attacked. Maybe I should
read your statement 'IF Poland would have been surrended on 1. September
till 5:00 am THEN Warsaw were not bombed'. Sorry, I could not share your
point.

Rotterdam for example, was being
used as a defensive position by the allies and there was actual house
to house combat taking place in the city.

In 1939 Warsaw was not defended house to house. The city suffered damages
and surrended on 28. September. Wounds were deep but Warsaw was still alive.
House to house combat took place in 1943 (19. April-8. May; Warsaw Ghetto
Uprising), in 1944 (1. August-2. October; Warsaw Uprising) and 1945 (17.
January; liberation of Warsaw). German aerial attacks were limited to dive
bombing (in other case they could hit their own troops). After that Warsaw
was 80% destroyed.

[snip...]

Warsaw and Rotterdam were both cities
that were bombed because of the fact that the defending troops had
bunkered themselves down in the city itself.

About Warsaw - see above.

[snip...]

Sincerely,
Ryan Muntener

I hate to tell you that you are not alone. Many 'historicians' claimed
recently that Poland (and Holland in this case) were guilty by themselves
that were attacked. Strange thinking, indeed... If Germans were worried
about destroying Warsaw (Rotterdam, London etc.) THEY COULD SIMPLY NOT TO
INVADE POLAND!!

NO regards, EOT
JasiekS [Jan Skowronski]
Warsaw, Poland

Ryan M. wrote in message ...

I'm sorry you were so offended by my statements. I only briefly
mentioned Warsaw as I did not have any good information at hand to
further clarify on it. And for this reason I should not have said that
there was house to house fighting in Warsaw, my mistake. I stuck
mostly with mentioning the conditions with the bombing of Rotterdam
instead. However, I understand that there are many sources that exist
which blatently contradict themselves on topics such as these. I would
still like to quote three sources I found with a quick search off the
internet.(no books as I am not at home to cite them)

1. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc...08-77-06.shtml

From the Nuremberg Trials...see link for more citation info:

Q. "You never saw any such reactions on their part on these bombings
[Warsaw, Rotterdam, and Coventry], I take it?"

A. "I only know that Warsaw was a fortress which was held by the
Polish Army in very great strength, provided with excellent pieces of
artillery, that the forts were manned, and that two or three times
Adolf Hitler announced that the city should be evacuated by civilians.
That was refused. Only the foreign embassies were evacuated, while an
officer with a flag of truce entered. The Polish Army was in the city
defending it stubbornly in a very dense circle of forts. The outer
forts were very strongly manned and, from the inner town, heavy
artillery was firing towards the outskirts. The fortress of Warsaw was
therefore attacked, also by the Luftwaffe, but only after Hitler's
ultimatum had been rejected."

How about this, a German General at the war crimes hearings
says he thought the air operations against Warsaw were military
only.

13 September 1939, the Luftwaffe bombing of north Warsaw,
operation Wasserkante, 50 50 incendiary/high explosive mix,
targets may have included the ghetto. This raid had been
intended for 1 September as part of the initial strikes but delayed
to the second half of the day, then the second day. It was put
back on the agenda by the Luftwaffe as a reprisal for claimed
Polish crimes. On 11 September Hitler demanded Warsaw be
bombed on the 12th, a days delay was subsequently granted.
About 183 bomber sorties, there is evidence the middle ranking
officers changed some of the targets from those chosen by the
Generals to more military ones.

Then for the siege of Warsaw,

Low cloud restricted operations on 23 September as the air
attacks began.

25 September 1939, Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw although the
official targets were meant to be military, the attack method
included Ju52s with men literally shovelling incendiaries out
of the door. Some 40,000 Polish deaths in Warsaw with 10%
of buildings destroyed and 40% heavily damaged due to air
strikes. Note this second strike was so inaccurate some
incendiaries fell amongst the German troops whose
commander asked for the bombing to stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

Warsaw surrendered on 27 September.

2. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchi...s_replies.html

Visit this link and scroll down to the area shaded in grey which
discusses the Luftwaffe attacks on Warsaw as well.

This is David Irving's web site, and a court has found him to be
a very unreliable historian, quoting him is a good way of giving
yourself zero credibility.

3. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...mbing/AP27.htm

Citations used for the writing of this WEB page on also found at the
link above:

"World War II began on September 1, 1939, in Poland when the German
Luftwaffe began to bomb military targets. When Warsaw continued to
fight, German leader Adolf Hitler approved the dropping of five tons
of bombs on the city, hastening Poland�s surrender. As German
tanks rolled through the rest of continental Europe, Hitler used the
example of the bombing of Warsaw to encourage submission. But with
minor exceptions, there were no more bombings of civilian targets on
either side. Hitler even released War Directive #2 that forbade
bombing attacks on France or England except as reprisals."

Yes on the internet you can generally find a piece of text that is
wrong but suits the purpose.

For example the article goes on to describe the German radio
navigation aids as radar guidance systems. It also repeats the
lone German bomber over London on 24/25 August 1940 myth,

"After dark on the 24th the attacks were stepped up, and
some 170 German aircraft ranged over England from the
borderland to Kent. Largely due to bad navigation bombers
directed to Rochester and the Thameshaven oil-tanks
dropped their loads on the City of London. For the first time
since the Gothas of 1918, Central London was damaged in
an air raid. Fires burned at London Wall, and boroughs like
Islington, Tottenham, Finsbury, Millwall, Stepney, East Ham,
Leyton, Coulsdon and Bethnel Green all received their share."

The Narrow Margin, Wood and Dempster.

The Peoples War by Angus Calder, notes "considerable fires".

Lot of damage by one bomber.

Flying well over 1,000 sorties over several days of strikes to drop
5 tons of bombs makes the Luftwaffe the most inefficient military
air force around. Just think what the army would make of that level
of support as it tried to attack the city.

The point of this respons is not to start an argument about this
topic, simply to let everyone know that I have read sources that
contradict what was stated by Keith in the prior post regarding
Rotterdam. We could all continue argueing by stating all the sources
which back up our opinion, but this is not my intention by any means.
History is the interpretation of the past and therefore will always be
dependant on how "we" as individuals interpret it.

Changing 600 tonnes of bombs to 5 tons is not reinterpretation.
Using David Irving as a source indicates a preference for fiction.
See Lying about Hitler (or Telling lies for Hitler) by Richard Evans,
who was a historian for the defence when David Irving sued for libel
and lost very badly.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Subject: Opinions wanted
From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Date: 1/16/04 11:03 PM Pacific

stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

Warsaw surrendered on 27 September.

Proof bombing works. And if Germany had long range heavy bombers and fighters
they may have well bombed England into sueing for peace. We should all be
greatful for Germany's short sightedness,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Yes on the internet you can generally find a piece of text that is
wrong but suits the purpose.

I was merely using those references (if you can call them that since
they are off the WEB) to illustrate that there is a large grey area
when your discussing the bombing of Warsaw and the actual intentions
behind the bombings. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

13 September 1939, the Luftwaffe bombing of north Warsaw,
operation Wasserkante, 50 50 incendiary/high explosive mix,
targets may have included the ghetto. This raid had been
intended for 1 September as part of the initial strikes but delayed
to the second half of the day, then the second day. It was put
back on the agenda by the Luftwaffe as a reprisal for claimed
Polish crimes. On 11 September Hitler demanded Warsaw be
bombed on the 12th, a days delay was subsequently granted.
About 183 bomber sorties, there is evidence the middle ranking
officers changed some of the targets from those chosen by the
Generals to more military ones.

In addition, the daily Luftwaffe orders for this September 13th
operation repeated "Military Targets Only" and these targets were "to
be spared if situated in heavily populated city areas" (from the Sept.
2 Directive) These quotes are from the Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus
Bekker.

An interesting note on a war crime committed by the Poles are the
roughly 1000 Germans murdered by Polish troops on Sept. 3 in Blomberg,
in eastern Poland, who falsely claimed that they had been shot at. "An
estimated 13,000 Poles of German origin lost their lives in similar
circumstances." (pp.17 from A World In Flames, by Martin Kitchen)

25 September 1939, Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw although the
official targets were meant to be military, the attack method
included Ju52s with men literally shovelling incendiaries out
of the door. Some 40,000 Polish deaths in Warsaw with 10%
of buildings destroyed and 40% heavily damaged due to air
strikes. Note this second strike was so inaccurate some
incendiaries fell amongst the German troops whose
commander asked for the bombing to stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

You should also mention that on September 16th, after attempts by a
German emissary for the Poles to give up, a dozen Heinkel He-111 from
I. Gruppe/KG 4 flew over Warsaw and dropped 1 million leaflets calling
for the population to exit the area through the eastern exits in 12
hours should their military commander fail to accept the ultimatum.
The next morning the Poles announced that they were sending an
emissary of their own to negotiate the evacuation of the Polish
citizens and hence the mass Luftwaffe raid planned for the 17th of
September did not take place. For whatever reason this negotiator did
not show up. The dropping of leaflets took place not only on the 16th
as mentioned above, but also on the 18th, 19th, 22nd, and 24th. During
all of this the roughly 100,000 Polish troops were setting up defences
within the city. It is at this point that the attack you accurately
portrayed took place.

In regards to the London bombing on Aug 24/25 I can only gather that
the targets for the night were the Rochester aircraft works, and the
oil tanks on the Thames. Obviously bombs fell on London, but it is
important to realize that the intent and orders for those operations
were not to attack cilivian targets. Goerings response (via
teleprinter signal) to the bomber squadrons the next morning are
recorded by the operations staff officer of KG1, Major Josef
Knobel..."It is to be reported forthwith which crews dropped bombs in
the London prohibited zone. The Supreme Commander reserves to himself
the personal punishment of the commanders concerned by remustering
them to the infantry."

None of this is my interpretation of the events. At this point I
regret two things:
1. Mentioning Warsaw and London in my response which was really only
to discuss the Rotterdam bombings.
2. The posting of the quick internet findings to illustrate that there
many different interpretations and articles which contradict
themselves not only on the Web but also on paper. It was not in any
way supposed to represent an attempt by me to portray the facts.

Sincerely,
Ryan Muntener

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
Ryan M. wrote in message ...

I'm sorry you were so offended by my statements. I only briefly
mentioned Warsaw as I did not have any good information at hand to
further clarify on it. And for this reason I should not have said that
there was house to house fighting in Warsaw, my mistake. I stuck
mostly with mentioning the conditions with the bombing of Rotterdam
instead. However, I understand that there are many sources that exist
which blatently contradict themselves on topics such as these. I would
still like to quote three sources I found with a quick search off the
internet.(no books as I am not at home to cite them)

1. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc...08-77-06.shtml

From the Nuremberg Trials...see link for more citation info:

Q. "You never saw any such reactions on their part on these bombings
[Warsaw, Rotterdam, and Coventry], I take it?"

A. "I only know that Warsaw was a fortress which was held by the
Polish Army in very great strength, provided with excellent pieces of
artillery, that the forts were manned, and that two or three times
Adolf Hitler announced that the city should be evacuated by civilians.
That was refused. Only the foreign embassies were evacuated, while an
officer with a flag of truce entered. The Polish Army was in the city
defending it stubbornly in a very dense circle of forts. The outer
forts were very strongly manned and, from the inner town, heavy
artillery was firing towards the outskirts. The fortress of Warsaw was
therefore attacked, also by the Luftwaffe, but only after Hitler's
ultimatum had been rejected."

How about this, a German General at the war crimes hearings
says he thought the air operations against Warsaw were military
only.

13 September 1939, the Luftwaffe bombing of north Warsaw,
operation Wasserkante, 50 50 incendiary/high explosive mix,
targets may have included the ghetto. This raid had been
intended for 1 September as part of the initial strikes but delayed
to the second half of the day, then the second day. It was put
back on the agenda by the Luftwaffe as a reprisal for claimed
Polish crimes. On 11 September Hitler demanded Warsaw be
bombed on the 12th, a days delay was subsequently granted.
About 183 bomber sorties, there is evidence the middle ranking
officers changed some of the targets from those chosen by the
Generals to more military ones.

Then for the siege of Warsaw,

Low cloud restricted operations on 23 September as the air
attacks began.

25 September 1939, Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw although the
official targets were meant to be military, the attack method
included Ju52s with men literally shovelling incendiaries out
of the door. Some 40,000 Polish deaths in Warsaw with 10%
of buildings destroyed and 40% heavily damaged due to air
strikes. Note this second strike was so inaccurate some
incendiaries fell amongst the German troops whose
commander asked for the bombing to stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

Warsaw surrendered on 27 September.

2. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchi...s_replies.html

Visit this link and scroll down to the area shaded in grey which
discusses the Luftwaffe attacks on Warsaw as well.

This is David Irving's web site, and a court has found him to be
a very unreliable historian, quoting him is a good way of giving
yourself zero credibility.

3. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...mbing/AP27.htm

Citations used for the writing of this WEB page on also found at the
link above:

"World War II began on September 1, 1939, in Poland when the German
Luftwaffe began to bomb military targets. When Warsaw continued to
fight, German leader Adolf Hitler approved the dropping of five tons
of bombs on the city, hastening Poland�s surrender. As German
tanks rolled through the rest of continental Europe, Hitler used the
example of the bombing of Warsaw to encourage submission. But with
minor exceptions, there were no more bombings of civilian targets on
either side. Hitler even released War Directive #2 that forbade
bombing attacks on France or England except as reprisals."

Yes on the internet you can generally find a piece of text that is
wrong but suits the purpose.

For example the article goes on to describe the German radio
navigation aids as radar guidance systems. It also repeats the
lone German bomber over London on 24/25 August 1940 myth,

"After dark on the 24th the attacks were stepped up, and
some 170 German aircraft ranged over England from the
borderland to Kent. Largely due to bad navigation bombers
directed to Rochester and the Thameshaven oil-tanks
dropped their loads on the City of London. For the first time
since the Gothas of 1918, Central London was damaged in
an air raid. Fires burned at London Wall, and boroughs like
Islington, Tottenham, Finsbury, Millwall, Stepney, East Ham,
Leyton, Coulsdon and Bethnel Green all received their share."

The Narrow Margin, Wood and Dempster.

The Peoples War by Angus Calder, notes "considerable fires".

Lot of damage by one bomber.

Flying well over 1,000 sorties over several days of strikes to drop
5 tons of bombs makes the Luftwaffe the most inefficient military
air force around. Just think what the army would make of that level
of support as it tried to attack the city.

The point of this respons is not to start an argument about this
topic, simply to let everyone know that I have read sources that
contradict what was stated by Keith in the prior post regarding
Rotterdam. We could all continue argueing by stating all the sources
which back up our opinion, but this is not my intention by any means.
History is the interpretation of the past and therefore will always be
dependant on how "we" as individuals interpret it.

Changing 600 tonnes of bombs to 5 tons is not reinterpretation.
Using David Irving as a source indicates a preference for fiction.
See Lying about Hitler (or Telling lies for Hitler) by Richard Evans,
who was a historian for the defence when David Irving sued for libel
and lost very badly.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Ryan M. wrote in message ...

I was merely using those references (if you can call them that since
they are off the WEB) to illustrate that there is a large grey area
when your discussing the bombing of Warsaw and the actual intentions
behind the bombings. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

This is exceptionally foolish. Finding, something, anything to contradict
is an exercise on propaganda, it implies either no thought or a deliberate
attempt to try and distort the debate. On the internet you can find text to
say almost anything. Above all posting such text and then in the next post
denouncing it is plain stupid, why post material you think is wrong without
telling people of the fact? Why post the material at all?

13 September 1939, the Luftwaffe bombing of north Warsaw,
operation Wasserkante, 50 50 incendiary/high explosive mix,
targets may have included the ghetto. This raid had been
intended for 1 September as part of the initial strikes but delayed
to the second half of the day, then the second day. It was put
back on the agenda by the Luftwaffe as a reprisal for claimed
Polish crimes. On 11 September Hitler demanded Warsaw be
bombed on the 12th, a days delay was subsequently granted.
About 183 bomber sorties, there is evidence the middle ranking
officers changed some of the targets from those chosen by the
Generals to more military ones.

In addition, the daily Luftwaffe orders for this September 13th
operation repeated "Military Targets Only" and these targets were "to
be spared if situated in heavily populated city areas" (from the Sept.
2 Directive) These quotes are from the Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus
Bekker.

I see no attempt to confirm or contradict the idea middle level officers,
the bomb group commanders, altered some of the targets. General
Richthofen had control of these strikes and he was definitely interested
in the idea of morale attacks.

An interesting note on a war crime committed by the Poles are the
roughly 1000 Germans murdered by Polish troops on Sept. 3 in Blomberg,
in eastern Poland, who falsely claimed that they had been shot at. "An
estimated 13,000 Poles of German origin lost their lives in similar
circumstances." (pp.17 from A World In Flames, by Martin Kitchen)

Remarkable how so far we have the Germans busily following the
all rules of war almost to extremes and the Poles doing all the bad
things.


Any chance of a mention about what the SS was up to at the time?
Since claims of Polish atrocities were used as justification for
air strikes presumably claims of German atrocities can be used
in deciding not to surrender?

25 September 1939, Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw although the
official targets were meant to be military, the attack method
included Ju52s with men literally shovelling incendiaries out
of the door. Some 40,000 Polish deaths in Warsaw with 10%
of buildings destroyed and 40% heavily damaged due to air
strikes. Note this second strike was so inaccurate some
incendiaries fell amongst the German troops whose
commander asked for the bombing to stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

You should also mention that on September 16th, after attempts by a
German emissary for the Poles to give up, a dozen Heinkel He-111 from
I. Gruppe/KG 4 flew over Warsaw and dropped 1 million leaflets calling
for the population to exit the area through the eastern exits in 12
hours should their military commander fail to accept the ultimatum.

Warsaw had a pre war population of 2.5 million, trying to move
that many people in 12 hours would be quite a challenge. Then
comes finding that many people food, water and shelter.

I understand the 18 September leaflets onward are on record as calling
for the city's surrender.

The next morning the Poles announced that they were sending an
emissary of their own to negotiate the evacuation of the Polish
citizens and hence the mass Luftwaffe raid planned for the 17th of
September did not take place. For whatever reason this negotiator did
not show up. The dropping of leaflets took place not only on the 16th
as mentioned above, but also on the 18th, 19th, 22nd, and 24th. During
all of this the roughly 100,000 Polish troops were setting up defences
within the city. It is at this point that the attack you accurately
portrayed took place.

The Germans were busy ranging guns and flying smaller scale
air strikes before the mass raid, the bad weather meant the
air effort was lower. Both sides were preparing to fight.

That the bombing attack included men shovelling incendiaries
out the door indicates claims of accurate strikes on purely military
targets are a joke.

In regards to the London bombing on Aug 24/25 I can only gather that
the targets for the night were the Rochester aircraft works, and the
oil tanks on the Thames. Obviously bombs fell on London, but it is
important to realize that the intent and orders for those operations
were not to attack cilivian targets. Goerings response (via
teleprinter signal) to the bomber squadrons the next morning are
recorded by the operations staff officer of KG1, Major Josef
Knobel..."It is to be reported forthwith which crews dropped bombs in
the London prohibited zone. The Supreme Commander reserves to himself
the personal punishment of the commanders concerned by remustering
them to the infantry."

Until the Luftwaffe started using sea mines suspended under parachutes
and fragmentation bombs on England the reality is all air forces were
officially after military targets. It is also the case all air forces hoped for
morale effects and were not too worried when bombs aimed at targets in
cities missed the target but hit the surrounding area.

In striking Rotterdam the Luftwaffe, as an institution, knew first hand from
Warsaw the probable results.

When the results came in about bombing accuracy the air forces simply
decided to keep up the city strikes, accepting the reality that the many
bombs that missed the official target would hit the surrounding areas,
and still hoping for a morale effect.

None of this is my interpretation of the events. At this point I
regret two things:
1. Mentioning Warsaw and London in my response which was really only
to discuss the Rotterdam bombings.
2. The posting of the quick internet findings to illustrate that there
many different interpretations and articles which contradict
themselves not only on the Web but also on paper. It was not in any
way supposed to represent an attempt by me to portray the facts.

On the web exists a body of fiction from the "Hitler was the good
guy" crowd. Simply claiming to repeat text found implies a major
lack of thought, are you responsible for the text you post, did you
search for it and make a choice selection? Someone who can quote
from several different books on WWII about the Polish campaign,
including day to day Luftwaffe operations, should be able to spot the
problems with an article that claims only 5 tons of bombs were
dropped in the raids for a start. You decided to include that text, no
one else.

You decided to drop in claims of a Polish atrocity, no one else.

You decided to quote David Irving as a source when anyone basically
familiar with WWII knows him to be unreliable, no one else.

Either take responsibility for the text you post or stop posting. Above
all explain the contradiction between your day to day knowledge of
Luftwaffe operations and a willingness to post text that is clearly
wrong, based on that day to day knowledge.

Changing 600 tonnes of bombs to 5 tons is not reinterpretation.
Using David Irving as a source indicates a preference for fiction.
See Lying about Hitler (or Telling lies for Hitler) by Richard Evans,
who was a historian for the defence when David Irving sued for libel
and lost very badly.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I have to add only that Warsaw was not the only Polish city bombed.
First city bombed was Wielun, totally undefended small city, and first
target was hospital with huge painted red cross on it. Great
paactising target for Luftwaffe pilots. I happened in early morning of
1939.