Parowan Fatal Crash

On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
all do.
1) Study these events and learn from them
2) Get some additional training
3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
what you want to hear.
4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
ourselves.
5) Never count on luck.
From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
himself in that kind of situation).
FWIW
UH

On Jul 1, 11:01*am, wrote:
On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
all do.
1) Study these events and learn from them
2) Get some additional training
3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
what you want to hear.
4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
ourselves.
5) Never count on luck.
From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
himself in that kind of situation).
FWIW
UH

I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy

On Jul 1, 2:49*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 1, 11:01*am, wrote:





On Jul 1, 1:41*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
all do.
1) Study these events and learn from them
2) Get some additional training
3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
what you want to hear.
4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
ourselves.
5) Never count on luck.
From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
himself in that kind of situation).
FWIW
UH

I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Speculation on my part- It would be interesting to know when the past
time either of these folks spun a glider and if either had ever spun
the glider they were flying.
When I ask this question of most pilots, the answer I get is that they
never have.
Again FWIW
UH

On Jul 1, 12:27�pm, wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:49�pm, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 1, 11:01�am, wrote:

On Jul 1, 1:41�pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:21�am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55�am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. �This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2 fatal crashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

This is a sad reminder that any of us can kill themselves. There is no
absolute solution, short of not flying, but there are things we can
all do.
1) Study these events and learn from them
2) Get some additional training
3) Fly regularly. Get advice from good sources- who may not tell you
what you want to hear.
4) Promise ourselves(and our families) that we will look for risks and
eliminate them, or at least minimize them. THEN- Do what we promise
ourselves.
5) Never count on luck.
From a guy that got away with one(and didn't think he would ever put
himself in that kind of situation).
FWIW
UH

I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Speculation on my part- It would be interesting to know when the past
time either of these folks spun a glider and if either had ever spun
the glider they were flying.
When I ask this question of most pilots, the answer I get is that they
never have.
Again FWIW
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd have to add that it's important to be in good health. You don't
want to have any issues, especially in conditions that may cause
stress like contests and weather (as in heat).

Mike Z

I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy


Ramy -

While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.

Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
should be aware of. There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
taking spin recovery training.

Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
behavior of their particular aircraft). They should also think about
stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
as well.

--Noel

On Jul 1, 12:31*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy

Ramy -

While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.

Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
should be aware of. *There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
taking spin recovery training.

Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
behavior of their particular aircraft). *They should also think about
stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
as well.

--Noel

Some of our birds are placarded against spinning (my Nimbus 3
included). Spin training is a must, but something like a Blanik won't
necessarily prepare a pilot for a glider with a less benign spin
mode. All of our machines "talk" to us in the air. The best thing we
can do is learn how to really listen to them.

Craig

On Jul 1, 2:01*pm, Craig wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:31*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:



I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy

Ramy -

While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.

Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
should be aware of. *There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
taking spin recovery training.

Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
behavior of their particular aircraft). *They should also think about
stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
as well.

--Noel

Some of our birds are placarded against spinning (my Nimbus 3
included). *Spin training is a must, but something like a Blanik won't
necessarily prepare a pilot for a glider with a less benign spin
mode. *All of our machines "talk" to us in the air. *The best thing we
can do is learn how to really listen to them.

Craig

After many years of first learning spins, practicing them and finally
teaching them, I've developed the opinion that what we do to teach
spins has little to do with the actual killer spin. Who would
inadvertently haul the nose way up then stomp full rudder at the stall
break?

The people who taught me the killer spin were my students. As in, "I
didn't know a glider would do that." It helps to have a easily
spinable glider like a 2-32, Blanik or Lark although the 2-32 tends to
spin too easily.

These spins require a set up. First, fly at minimum controllable
airspeed for at least 30 seconds. Try to let the glider slowly and
smoothly enter "mushing flight". In "mushing flight" the glider is
not quite stalled but the airflow over the wing has become unstable.
Any disturbance will trip it into a full stall. The angle of attack
is very high due to the sink rate - not a nose high attitude. In
fact, the nose can be near the usual gliding attitude.

Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. (Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

In most fatal "spin-in" accidents, I think the glider is likely to
have transitioned to a spiral dive before impact. This can also
explain some in-flight breakups following an inadvertent spin.

There has been some insightful, thoughtful, and (I hope)
thought-provoking input ahead of this post & I doubt I can contribute
much more, beyond agreeing with it all and trying to reinforce it from
my personal perspective.

As the years have passed, one by one most of my long-held beliefs about
certain aspects of aviation have been proven wrong by reality, e.g.:
- it IS possible to spin in a landing-flap-only-equipped sailplane while
flying a pattern with full flaps;
- people DO routinely fall asleep at the switch;
- "it" CAN happen to me.

The ship I've flown since 1981 is docility defined in every flight
regime which I've explored, and I have difficulty imagining one of
similar airfoil & configuration being inadvertently spun...yet it has
been done (not by me), and, into the ground, with full flaps deployed
(the pilot - who survived - was overshooting his off-airport field).

I've never spun mine, have no intention of ever spinning it
(intentionally or unintentionally), but believe in my soul that it
*might* be possible that I *could* inadvertently spin it...and try
really hard to "not do it!" So far, it's worked.

I believe and think this way for a number of reasons: 1) accident
reports tell me others (including paid professionals) too-often 'do the
impossibly unlikely;' 2) perfection's NOT an option; and 3) I hope that
by so believing I'm doing everything I can within myself to *avoid*
doing those things I never - EVER! - want to do in a glider. You're
darned right there's a paradox here, but until someone comes up with an
inoculation against human forgetfulness, momentary inattention during
critical flight regimes, varying/diminishing skills, etc. I believe it's
the best I can do within my own brain.

I knew neither of our recently departed soul brothers, but mourn their
passing and circumstances, and grieve for their families and friends.

Respectfully and Sorrowfully,
Bob W.

On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan wrote:

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA