SAFE Winch Launching

On Jul 13, 2:45*am, Dave Martin wrote:
Bill

The arguments are now in an endless repetative cycle fired by the theories
you propose and the convenient practicalities of the European systems, also
used by older US winches *- still in use today.

There is only one solution the challenge is there -- get the winch built
with the new technology and at a competetive price and put it on the
market.

Like new glider technology if it works people will use it.

Sadly much as we would like to do it we cannot change overnight.

Look how long it has taken to get the EB28 technology into a practical
aircraft --- but at what cost and how many of us can actually afford it?

Dave

*At 07:15 13 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:

At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:

But other nonsense posted here . please help me, *...

A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
adjust
the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?

David.

Bill Daniels has some very strange ideas as to how an automatic gearbox
works! As far as I am concerned, it is a device to allow a motor vehicle
to move off from rest, to smoothly change gears, and to stop without
stalling the engine, without a driver operated mechanical clutch. It is
not cruise control!

In that changing gear with a mechanical gearbox and clutch would give
dangerous short term losses of power, an automatic gearbox is an
essential
component for any winch or towcar.

Derek Copeland

We are doing exactly that - and it's working! It's what has the Brits
so agitated.

After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the WinchDesign group.



..

At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions =
became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
WinchDesign group.

I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

"Del C" wrote in message ...
At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions =
became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
WinchDesign group.

I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.

With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered safe.

I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.

Hi Wayne,

It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
similar.

As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.

Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
sort of launch, including aerotows.

Suggest that you have a read of:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.

Cheers,
Derek Copeland


At 16:42 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:


I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As =
elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. =20

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope
=
to get the training in the near future. =20

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a
=
CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a
=
couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; =
however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This =
should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group =
and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a
=
long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was
=
expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened
=
both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I =
watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering
=
had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.

With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the =
background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally =
charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo
=
News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the
=
US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are
=
planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered
=
safe.

I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.

Derek,

You have identified a major problem in the first paragraph. It is hard to create a "critical mass" when the state where you live covers 83,642 square miles and only has a population density of 15.64 people/sq mile. The area of England is only 50,346 square mile; however, has a population density of 1,015/sq mile. Our density is only 1.6 percent of England's.

As a result of the low population density it is hard to form a viable club. Locally forming a club has been tried on at least three separate occasions all of which resulted in failure. Consequently all the local gliders are privately owned.

The large geographic provides a great opportunity to fly cross-country. All the local pilots fly cross-country. As a result we seldom have more then 10 launches a day. This makes aero-tows the most practical launch form.

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"Derek Copeland" wrote in message ...
Hi Wayne,

It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
similar.

As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.

Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
sort of launch, including aerotows.

Suggest that you have a read of:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.

Cheers,
Derek Copeland

At 23:31 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
Derek,

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced
=
the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne

We gave up on that idea long ago, trying to get our ladies to run that
fast proved beynd our capabilities so we built winches instead.

On Jul 13, 10:42*am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"Del C" wrote in ...
At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. *The discussions =
became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
WinchDesign group.

I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. *As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. *

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future. *

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. *There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. *This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.


Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I believe that John Kangas is also mowing the King Mountain Glider Park
"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message ...
On Jul 13, 10:42 am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.


Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

Unfortunately, I have a wedding here in Colorado to attend, so I won't
be able to come to Idaho.

Frank

On Jul 14, 6:12*am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
Frank,

I believe that John Kangas is also mowing the King Mountain Glider Park"Frank Whiteley" wrote in ...

On Jul 13, 10:42 am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:



I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. *Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? *We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. *I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley