A fair opportunity to compete?

On Jul 16, 5:15*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
On 5 July, 19:40, John Cochrane
wrote:
Charlie's report on the ssa website says it was the last three pilots
to launch who could not stay up, which seems a significant detail. If
the first to launch can find lift, get away from the airport, and wait
to start, but there really is zero lift in the airport area when the
back half of the grid launches, then the decision seems reasonable --
from this very far distance.

Something I do not understand here, why was the fact that 3 pilots could
not stay up a problem, that frequently happens in comps in the UK and the
competitors relight. There surely is not restriction on starting once the
gate is open. Our rules specify that once the gate is open and the
competition has started competitors may take a launch until 1800hrs so
they have ample opportunity to compete if they do not suceed at first. Any
CD in the UK who allowed the cancellation of a comp day that had been
completed by the majority of the competitors because 3 pilots could not
stay up would very likely suffer total humiliation not to mention serious
abuse, both of which would be richly deserved.

While a CD in the UK will listen to what competitors are saying they DO
NOT take formal advice on conditions from competitors. We do have a non
competitor sniffer who relays back the conditions and of course we listen
to comments on safety matters. Competitors should not be used as advisors
in a formal sense, except on matters of safety, there is a huge conflict
of interest and the system is open to allegations of abuse.



I wasn't there but I think I understand the problem. This issue is
where does a CD draw the line.

Should the CD Open the Gate if a storm settles over the airport and
the last 3 competitors can not be launched?

How about if they can be launched but it is pouring rain in the drop
zone, with obviously no chance for them to climb out?

OK lets remove the rain but still obviously no chance to climb out.

The issue is even more of an issue at Parowan due to the distance of
the drop zone from the airport. If you can't climb immediately you
will land out. Even those that tried to move away from the bad weather
still ended up landing out.

On the day in question the conditions were obviously deteriorating as
they opted to cancel the launching of the following classes because
they were have a 100% relights/landouts. I wasn't there but I would
have to admit I would be seriously ticked off if I were leading the
contest and then were one of the last 3 to launch into conditions that
I obviously had no opportunity to climb out in. But I can also see
the point of the large number of contestants that were able to get
away in better conditions but then have the day scrubbed because only
a few gliders were not given the opportunity to get away. It is
unfortunate but in this particular situation I think scrubbing the day
was the appropriate thing to do. Of course not opening the gate to
begin with would have probably been the best thing, but I can see that
this might have been hard to see from any direction other than
hindsight. The CD probably didn't realize that all the glider
launching after a certain time were going to landout/relight until he
had already opened the gate.

Brian

Ok, I'm the CD. Two minutes before I open the gate, I call the last
launcher and ask how's he doing. He replies he's on a dead glide back
to the airport. I then call my sports advisor. He replies that he's at
12000 feet along with half the class, waiting for the gate to open.
What do I do?

I realize the late launchers are struggling and hold the gate opening
for 5 minutes.

Now, its 20 minutes after the last launcher
rolled........................what do I do? Do I scrub the day
because the last 3 launchers aren't getting a fair shot? NO, I realize
that this sport will never be 100% fair and equal. There is a luck-of-
the-draw issue with launch position and that is just part of the game.
I open the gate and the race is on!

Next day when I get 2 protests, I deny them!

JJ Sinclair, who has CD'd 3 national competitions without a single
protest.

Brian wrote:
On Jul 16, 5:15*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
On 5 July, 19:40, John Cochrane
wrote:
Charlie's report on the ssa website says it was the last three pilots
to launch who could not stay up, which seems a significant detail. If
the first to launch can find lift, get away from the airport, and wait
to start, but there really is zero lift in the airport area when the
back half of the grid launches, then the decision seems reasonable --
from this very far distance.

Something I do not understand here, why was the fact that 3 pilots could
not stay up a problem, that frequently happens in comps in the UK and the
competitors relight. There surely is not restriction on starting once the
gate is open. Our rules specify that once the gate is open and the
competition has started competitors may take a launch until 1800hrs so
they have ample opportunity to compete if they do not suceed at first. Any
CD in the UK who allowed the cancellation of a comp day that had been
completed by the majority of the competitors because 3 pilots could not
stay up would very likely suffer total humiliation not to mention serious
abuse, both of which would be richly deserved.

While a CD in the UK will listen to what competitors are saying they DO
NOT take formal advice on conditions from competitors. We do have a non
competitor sniffer who relays back the conditions and of course we listen
to comments on safety matters. Competitors should not be used as advisors
in a formal sense, except on matters of safety, there is a huge conflict
of interest and the system is open to allegations of abuse.



I wasn't there but I think I understand the problem. This issue is
where does a CD draw the line.

Should the CD Open the Gate if a storm settles over the airport and
the last 3 competitors can not be launched?

How about if they can be launched but it is pouring rain in the drop
zone, with obviously no chance for them to climb out?

OK lets remove the rain but still obviously no chance to climb out.

The issue is even more of an issue at Parowan due to the distance of
the drop zone from the airport. If you can't climb immediately you
will land out. Even those that tried to move away from the bad weather
still ended up landing out.

On the day in question the conditions were obviously deteriorating as
they opted to cancel the launching of the following classes because
they were have a 100% relights/landouts. I wasn't there but I would
have to admit I would be seriously ticked off if I were leading the
contest and then were one of the last 3 to launch into conditions that
I obviously had no opportunity to climb out in. But I can also see
the point of the large number of contestants that were able to get
away in better conditions but then have the day scrubbed because only
a few gliders were not given the opportunity to get away. It is
unfortunate but in this particular situation I think scrubbing the day
was the appropriate thing to do. Of course not opening the gate to
begin with would have probably been the best thing, but I can see that
this might have been hard to see from any direction other than
hindsight. The CD probably didn't realize that all the glider
launching after a certain time were going to landout/relight until he
had already opened the gate.

Brian

On Jul 17, 6:24*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Ok, I'm the CD. Two minutes before I open the gate, I call the last
launcher and ask how's he doing. He replies he's on a dead glide back
to the airport. I then call my sports advisor. He replies that he's at
12000 feet along with half the class, waiting for the gate to open.
What do I do?

I realize the late launchers are struggling and hold the gate opening
for 5 minutes.

Now, its 20 minutes after the last launcher
rolled........................what do I do? *Do I scrub the day
because the last 3 launchers aren't getting a fair shot? NO, I realize
that this sport will never be 100% fair and equal. There is a luck-of-
the-draw issue with launch position and that is just part of the game.
I open the gate and the race is on!

Next day when I get 2 protests, I deny them!

JJ Sinclair, who has CD'd 3 national competitions without a single
protest.


Why wait the extra 5 minutes in that case? If it's clear the day has
shut down for any late launchers, why not declare them SOL right away
so you don't risk the starts for the rest of the class by waiting?

9B

Andy wrote:

Why wait the extra 5 minutes in that case?

Not all is known at gate opening time, just that half the fleet is OK
and a few are struggling.

Lets take the same scenario, but this time we'll make it the last day
and we need one more day to make it a contest. Any question as to
opening the gate now? Does anybody think a sane CD would scrub the
day?
JJ

On Jul 17, 1:19*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Andy wrote:
Why wait the extra 5 minutes in that case?

Not all is known at gate opening time, just that half the fleet is OK
and a few are struggling.

Lets take the same scenario, but this time we'll make it the last day
and we need one more day to make it a contest. Any question as to
opening the gate now? Does anybody think a sane CD would scrub the
day?
JJ

But waiting 5 minutes could screw it up for everyone else. If you
believe in the luck of the draw than there is no point in waiting
since what is known and not known at gate opening time is all part of
the luck factor that you you are advocating we not try to correct for.

Last day versus first day shouldn't matter if we are trying to do the
fair thing - though I appreciate that the pressure to cut corners to
get a contest in goes up as the number of remaining days goes down.
Some CDs might open the gate with 60 percent of the fleet back on the
ground. You might well get a contest in, but would it be worth it?

9B

Andy wrote?

But waiting 5 minutes could screw it up for everyone else.

The 5 minutes comes right from the master, Charlie Spratt. Its an
acknowledgment that some are in trouble, but we're here to race and
race we will. Probably done more as an answer (in advance) to any
potential Parowan type protests that might be lurking out there.

Last day versus first day shouldn't matter if we are trying to do the
fair thing - though I appreciate that the pressure to cut corners to
get a contest in goes up as the number of remaining days goes down.
Some CDs might open the gate with 60 percent of the fleet back on the
ground. You might well get a contest in, but would it be worth it?

See above under, "We're here to race and race we will". If you want to
hold a contest that is completely fair, get the Parowan management
group together and the winner will be decided by the one who wins the
most protests (or prtests to the original protests)!

This has been a good thread and I believe much has been learned,
however I must take my exit now. I'm off to fly a contest where we
don't protest our launch positions!
Love & kisses to all,
JJ

Fly like the wind JJ! Good luck.

On Jul 18, 6:19*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Andy wrote?

The 5 minutes comes right from the master, Charlie Spratt. Its an
acknowledgment that some are in trouble, but we're here to race and
race we will. Probably done more as an answer (in advance) to any
potential Parowan type protests that might be lurking out there.


Got it. The 5 minutes is just lip service - not my preferred approach,
by probably effective most of the time.

I do think in this case the CD would have been justified in not
opening the Sports Class gate at all - as disappointing as that may
have been for several dozen pilots. Opening the gate makes an implicit
statement that the CD believes everyone in the class has been given a
fair opportunity to get a start. This should probably be made more
explicit - either in the rules or in the guidance given to CDs. We
should also consider making it more explicit that the CD should take
whatever measures s/he thinks are necessary to ensure that
opportunity, including raising the release altitude and/or changing
the drop zone (changing the drop zone in particular is tricky, because
changing ANYTHING can lead to griping and protests).

9B

On Jul 17, 12:21*am, Brian wrote:
On Jul 16, 5:15*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:



On 5 July, 19:40, John Cochrane
wrote:
Charlie's report on the ssa website says it was the last three pilots
to launch who could not stay up, which seems a significant detail. If
the first to launch can find lift, get away from the airport, and wait
to start, but there really is zero lift in the airport area when the
back half of the grid launches, then the decision seems reasonable --
from this very far distance.

Something I do not understand here, why was the fact that 3 pilots could
not stay up a problem, that frequently happens in comps in the UK and the
competitors relight. There surely is not restriction on starting once the
gate is open. Our rules specify that once the gate is open and the
competition has started competitors may take a launch until 1800hrs so
they have ample opportunity to compete if they do not suceed at first. Any
CD in the UK who allowed the cancellation of a comp day that had been
completed by the majority of the competitors because 3 pilots could not
stay up would very likely suffer total humiliation not to mention serious
abuse, both of which would be richly deserved.

While a CD in the UK will listen to what competitors are saying they DO
NOT take formal advice on conditions from competitors. We do have a non
competitor sniffer who relays back the conditions and of course we listen
to comments on safety matters. Competitors should not be used as advisors
in a formal sense, except on matters of safety, there is a huge conflict
of interest and the system is open to allegations of abuse.

I wasn't there but I think I understand the problem. This issue is
where does a CD draw the line.

Should the CD Open the Gate if a storm settles over the airport and
the last 3 competitors can not be launched?

How about if they can be launched but it is pouring rain in the drop
zone, with obviously no chance for them to climb out?

OK lets remove the rain but still obviously no chance to climb out.

The issue is even more of an issue at Parowan due to the distance of
the drop zone from the airport. If you can't climb immediately you
will land out. Even those that tried to move away from the bad weather
still ended up landing out.

On the day in question the conditions were obviously deteriorating as
they opted to cancel the launching of the following classes because
they were have a 100% relights/landouts. *I wasn't there but I would
have to admit I would be seriously ticked off if I were leading the
contest and then were one of the last 3 to launch into conditions that
I obviously had *no opportunity to climb out in. *But I can also see
the point of the large number of contestants that were able to get
away in better conditions but then have the day scrubbed because only
a few gliders were not given the opportunity to get away. It is
unfortunate but in this particular situation I think scrubbing the day
was the appropriate thing to do. Of course not opening the gate to
begin with would have probably been the best thing, but I can see that
this might have been hard to see from any direction other than
hindsight. The CD probably didn't realize that all the glider
launching after a certain time were going to landout/relight until he
had already opened the gate.

Brian

Brian,

Well said. I was taught that it is best to win when your opponents
have done there best, not to wish them bad luck. The sign of a true
sportsman would be to say that it was best to cancel the day if some
of the pilots did not have a fair chance to compete.