Runway incursions

On Sep 9, 11:41*pm, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 9, 2:13*pm, Steve Hix wrote:

And got my act together. Although to this day, I'm a bit twitchy about
ground operations and clearances.

I absolutely can relate Steve as I work out of an uncontrolled
airport. * Taxiways wider then my home base runway, I can fully
understand how that kind of mistake can be made (I haven't done that
myself!) *There is a vast amount of concrete out there!


I'm intrigued to read your and Steve Hix's incidents - had somehow
missed reading them earlier - and how a taxiway could be mistaken for
a runway.

I get to see taxiways and runways all the time (at least twice a
week), but only as a passenger, on the ground maneuvering camera
system displays. I must say that the two paths have always looked
rather distinctively different, with runways having the thick single
yellow centerline flanked by yellow dashes and green lights, and
runways being very wide, with a multitude of yellow lights and a white
dashed centerline. I don't get to see all the backlit signage clearly
but I think they too are different for runways and taxiways.

Since the confusion has actually happened to you, I guess there still
is room for bettering taxiway and runway markings.

Ramapriya

On Sep 22, 3:13*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

Since the confusion has actually happened to you, I guess there still
is room for bettering taxiway and runway markings.

Ramapriya

Ramopriya

I call it "sensory overload" when confronted with a myriad of things
to take in and absorb. One would think that a yellow line in front of
you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,
for me, I lose that yellow line in front of me trying to figure out,
ok, which way do I turn especially when multiple taxiway entrances and
exits are there. Then of course, you listen to ground and you
concentrate so hard on not doing something dumb like a runway
incursion as you are concentrating on staying on the right taxiway.

Even when I ask for progressives with turns, it's quite overwhelming
to me as like I said earlier, an aweful lot concrete presented to me
and I really think the signage is designed for viewing downward from
the cockpit of a jet rather then my measily ole Sundowner. Is it
really a right turn, a sharp right turn or what when looking at a
taxiway arrow. Looks sharp right on the sign but in actually it's
like a yield. I stare at the AFD and look ahead and it sure looks
different LOL

You are absolutely right, there is a distinct difference in markings
for runways and taxiways, but human nature for me almost wants to lose
that detail in trying to "fly the plane" just taxiing. I do believe
distractions are much more prevalent at the larger airports allowing
for simple mistakes such as lining up on a 200 foot wide taxiway for
takeoff. Add in "inexperience" such as myself at controlled airports
and I am sure the error potential goes even higher.

One thing I learned big time especially at airports with multiple
runways is that I always check the DG against the runway numbers
before take off. Comair accident in Lexington taught me that lesson
and I can fully understand how that accident happened as I took off
from the very same runway and even after the accident the signage was
pretty crappy and I had asked for progressives!

The best way I can equate this to a non pilot is that when you drive
on an interstate you know to stay between the dashed white lines but
do you really see the white lines while you are driving? You do, but
it's not the focus of your attention as your attention really is
focused on avoiding the cars around you.

On Sep 22, 4:28*pm, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 22, 3:13*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

One thing I learned big time especially at airports with multiple
runways is that I always check the DG against the runway numbers
before take off. *Comair accident in Lexington taught me that lesson
and I can fully understand how that accident happened as I took off
from the very same runway and even after the accident the signage was
pretty crappy and I had asked for progressives!


Regarding that LEX crash, I know that everyone busied himself
pillorying the pilots but I think I'll place at least 20% culpability
(whatever that means ) on the sod within Comair who scheduled those
pilots on that trip. From what I've read, they'd returned from flights
the previous night at 11.30 pm and midnight respectively. It's
anybody's guess how well-rested and/or alert they'd have been ere a
6.45 am takeoff the following morning. I don't have the credentials to
either condemn or condone pilot actions but my guess is that since
neither pilot would've had more than 4 hours' sleep the previous
night, they may have been a touch short on the eagle alertness called
for in a high-workload job. You might laugh at the suggestion of pilot
fatigue on a flight that hasn't even commenced but there was fatigue
of *some* sort that contributed to that incident.

Does anyone here have a copy of the accident report of that crash? I
Googled but came up empty...

Ramapriya

On Sep 22, 9:29*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

Does anyone here have a copy of the accident report of that crash? I
Googled but came up empty...

I agree, fatique doesn't start with a flight, it starts when you wake
up if you didn't get adequate rest the night before..

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.pdf is the accident report

On Sep 22, 7:12*pm, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 22, 9:29*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

Does anyone here have a copy of the accident report of that crash? I
Googled but came up empty...

I agree, fatique doesn't start with a flight, it starts when you wake
up if you didn't get adequate rest the night before..

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.pdfis the accident report


Thanks a bunch, mate. It's apparent that both my earlier sources - a
FOX News analysis and a news article (Reuters, probably) - had
erroneous information about the pilots having returned from flights
late the previous night... wow!

Ramapriya

On Sep 22, 10:12*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 22, 9:29*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

Does anyone here have a copy of the accident report of that crash? I
Googled but came up empty...

I agree, fatique doesn't start with a flight, it starts when you wake
up if you didn't get adequate rest the night before..

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.pdf is the accident report


This is a fascinating read. They're on takeoff roll on the short
runway, which has no lights. As they're crossing the long runway,
which has runway lights on, the first officer says, "[that] is weird
with no lights.” The captain responds, "yeah.” Did either one of
them notice those lights and wonder, "we just CROSSED a lighted
runway, Lexington has just one lighted runway"?

On Sep 23, 10:18*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.pdfis the accident report

This is a fascinating read.


On Page 61 of this July 2007 report, the first two sentences of
Section 2.2.1.4 state the FAA and ICAO definitions of a runway
incursion. To a non-pilot (also non-native English, so...) not knowing
if "runway" has a definition that restricts it to a particular
portion, there's little doubt that the definition of runway incursion
is restricted to the runway envelope. The FAA definition could easily
be mistaken for the taxiway and other airport areas if "runway" had
been omitted from the "any occurrence in the airport runway
environment involving..." bit.

Save for the personal bits, a good deal of clarity has actually
emerged on this thread

Ramapriya

D Ramapriya wrote:

On Page 61 of this July 2007 report, the first two sentences of
Section 2.2.1.4 state the FAA and ICAO definitions of a runway
incursion.


The FAA adopted the ICAO definition a year ago.



To a non-pilot (also non-native English, so...) not knowing
if "runway" has a definition that restricts it to a particular
portion, there's little doubt that the definition of runway incursion
is restricted to the runway envelope. The FAA definition could easily
be mistaken for the taxiway and other airport areas if "runway" had
been omitted from the "any occurrence in the airport runway
environment involving..." bit.


So a seminar attendee could have been confused if FSDO dude had misstated
the old definition of runway incursion? Is that what you're saying?

One would think that a yellow line in front of you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,

FAA signage is limited and rather clear. If you have problems reading
it, you should study your AFD or airport diagram BEFORE entering the
movement area, or find an instructor or experienced pilot to help you.
You can have all your FAA regs and definitions down pat, but, a pilot
who can't interpret the signs or stay on the taxiway is dangerous.

Other than the AIM, which is obvious, here are some great resources
for students and other pilots:

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/quiz/ -- FAA
material.
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications...RWcards_lo.pdf --
AOPA flashcards. The FAA distributes these as well.
http://www.airnav.com/airports/ -- Airport diagrams

A professional pilot will have studied the airport diagram and will
already be familiar with the most likely routes to the active runway,
or to parking.

Usenet flamewarring aside, the local example which could confuse
anybody is Paine Field in Everett, WA. http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0909/00142AD.PDF
Runway 11/29 appears narrower than the alpha taxiway and ramps, and
not all the taxiways are marked on the diagram. Also notice that 29
just sort of starts in the middle of the tarmac. You're taxiing along
on what seems like a sea of asphalt with hangars in the middle of it,
and all of a sudden there's a runway. For an unfamiliar pilot,
especially one who comes in at night or in bad weather or is fatigued,
it's easy to be on the yellow line and still get lost. I requested and
received progressive taxi, but I'm pretty sure there are places there
that the ground controller can't even see you.

for me, I lose that yellow line in front of me trying to figure out, ok, which way do I turn especially when multiple taxiway entrances and
exits are there.

"What kind of ..." :P

These problems are common, and exacerbated by fatigue and stress and
also fear of making a mistake.

-c

On Sep 23, 5:20*am, C Gattman wrote:
One would think that a yellow line in front of you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,

FAA signage is limited and rather clear. If you have problems reading
it, you should study your AFD or airport diagram BEFORE entering the
movement area, or find an instructor or experienced pilot to help you.

I do study the AFD. Did you read my response? The signage is limited
in choices as you describe but obviously you have never been at KLEX
or KBTR down on Bravo as an example for clarity of directions. KMEI
even looks simpler but taxi down to runway 4. Looks easy enough on
the diagram but it's not due to the lack of clarity of the signage.
Land on runway one and get off on Alpha three. Looks like a breeze on
the AFD. It wasn't the first time I landed there.

You can have all your FAA regs and definitions down pat, but, a pilot
who can't interpret the signs or stay on the taxiway is dangerous.

I know how to interpret the signage, I never indicated anything
differently.

A professional pilot will have studied the airport diagram and will
already be familiar with the most likely routes to the active runway,
or to parking.

You don't have to be a professional pilot to study the airport
diagram. I do this all the time, but that don't take away the
vastness of what to interpret on my way out to the end of the runway.

These problems are common, and exacerbated by fatigue and stress and
also fear of making a mistake.

FINALLY, you are coming around. This is my point I have been making
all along. In my case, fear of making a mistake and you would have
seen me saying this had you read my response.

You can have all the book knowledge in the world and know every flash
card, but when the rubber meets the road, human factor takes over and
this is where mistakes can conclude with a runway incursion or
erroneously taking off a taxiway.

Hence I use every tool in the toolkit including progressives with
turns when I am at a controlled airport I never been at before. I
even made a video of this.

My rule of thumb, rather sound dumb on the radio then do something
dumb on the ground.