Runway incursions

C Gattman wrote:

Only when Steve push you to put up or shut up did you offer anything.


Oh, so now you're saying I -did- offer something. Get your bull****
straight. That tells me everything I need to know about you.


Do you understand that what you offered proved your position to be
incorrect?



I didn't say I know it all, I responded back with a source
supporting what I thought was a definition of a runway incursion.
You my friend did not return that courtesy TO ME


Do not call me your friend. You apparently didn't bother to read the
material I presented to McNicoll on the forum.


Apparently you didn't bother to read it either.



I see no need to repeat
myself in a print forum and I don't owe you courtesy. I posted all
kinds of URLs in this thread including some from the FAA and one--
we've already gone over this, but---that McNicoll e-mail and had
removed.


Gene Benson chose to take it down after it was pointed out that it contained
incorrect information.



Bye. The last word is yours.


Haven't you said that before?

One would think that a yellow line in front of you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,

FAA signage is limited and rather clear. If you have problems reading
it, you should study your AFD or airport diagram BEFORE entering the
movement area, or find an instructor or experienced pilot to help you.
You can have all your FAA regs and definitions down pat, but, a pilot
who can't interpret the signs or stay on the taxiway is dangerous.

Other than the AIM, which is obvious, here are some great resources
for students and other pilots:

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/quiz/ -- FAA
material.
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications...RWcards_lo.pdf --
AOPA flashcards. The FAA distributes these as well.
http://www.airnav.com/airports/ -- Airport diagrams

A professional pilot will have studied the airport diagram and will
already be familiar with the most likely routes to the active runway,
or to parking.

Usenet flamewarring aside, the local example which could confuse
anybody is Paine Field in Everett, WA. http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0909/00142AD.PDF
Runway 11/29 appears narrower than the alpha taxiway and ramps, and
not all the taxiways are marked on the diagram. Also notice that 29
just sort of starts in the middle of the tarmac. You're taxiing along
on what seems like a sea of asphalt with hangars in the middle of it,
and all of a sudden there's a runway. For an unfamiliar pilot,
especially one who comes in at night or in bad weather or is fatigued,
it's easy to be on the yellow line and still get lost. I requested and
received progressive taxi, but I'm pretty sure there are places there
that the ground controller can't even see you.

for me, I lose that yellow line in front of me trying to figure out, ok, which way do I turn especially when multiple taxiway entrances and
exits are there.

"What kind of ..." :P

These problems are common, and exacerbated by fatigue and stress and
also fear of making a mistake.

-c

On Sep 23, 4:23*am, C Gattman wrote:

If I don't bow to your disagreement or jump to your satisfaction on
demand, the character assassination begins. You and your little
chronies here can pat each other on the backs. You really told -me-,
didn't you? * *cackle*

Kinda ironic, you an instructor being defensive when called to task in
supporting something you say. Thread stands for itself my friend.

I have never met an instructor as bad as you in responses like this
thread but like everything else in life, there is always a first time
for everything.

Just like I told Flaps50, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the
way out.

On Sep 23, 5:20*am, C Gattman wrote:
One would think that a yellow line in front of you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,

FAA signage is limited and rather clear. If you have problems reading
it, you should study your AFD or airport diagram BEFORE entering the
movement area, or find an instructor or experienced pilot to help you.

I do study the AFD. Did you read my response? The signage is limited
in choices as you describe but obviously you have never been at KLEX
or KBTR down on Bravo as an example for clarity of directions. KMEI
even looks simpler but taxi down to runway 4. Looks easy enough on
the diagram but it's not due to the lack of clarity of the signage.
Land on runway one and get off on Alpha three. Looks like a breeze on
the AFD. It wasn't the first time I landed there.

You can have all your FAA regs and definitions down pat, but, a pilot
who can't interpret the signs or stay on the taxiway is dangerous.

I know how to interpret the signage, I never indicated anything
differently.

A professional pilot will have studied the airport diagram and will
already be familiar with the most likely routes to the active runway,
or to parking.

You don't have to be a professional pilot to study the airport
diagram. I do this all the time, but that don't take away the
vastness of what to interpret on my way out to the end of the runway.

These problems are common, and exacerbated by fatigue and stress and
also fear of making a mistake.

FINALLY, you are coming around. This is my point I have been making
all along. In my case, fear of making a mistake and you would have
seen me saying this had you read my response.

You can have all the book knowledge in the world and know every flash
card, but when the rubber meets the road, human factor takes over and
this is where mistakes can conclude with a runway incursion or
erroneously taking off a taxiway.

Hence I use every tool in the toolkit including progressives with
turns when I am at a controlled airport I never been at before. I
even made a video of this.

My rule of thumb, rather sound dumb on the radio then do something
dumb on the ground.

On Sep 23, 3:16*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

I see no need to repeat myself in a print forum and I don't owe you
courtesy. I posted all
kinds of URLs in this thread including some from the FAA and one-- we've already gone over this, but---that McNicoll e-mail and had
removed.

Gene Benson chose to take it down after it was pointed out that it contained incorrect information.

I just said that, knucklehead. Thank you for acknowledging that I
posted sources. BS indicated otherwise.

Bye. The last word is yours.

Haven't you said that before?

Was I replying to you, or to Beech? I gave you the last word in our
dialogue, and I extended the same courtesy to BS. I have no idea why
you can't figure that out, unless you two are some sort of couple.

Now you're just out here trying to pile on more flames.

-c

On Sep 23, 11:50*am, C Gattman wrote:

I just said that, knucklehead. *Thank you for acknowledging that I
posted sources. BS indicated otherwise.

You really do have a reading comprehension problem. And you are an
instructor???

YOUR RESPONSE TO ME when I ASKED YOU to back up your statement was.

Because I'm an instructor and I brought it up on the student forum I
feel obliged to "reciprocate" and clarify for other readers.
Apparently, telling you what I saw happen has no value to you so
clearly you don't respect my word. I'm not out here to engage in some
sort of penis-measuring contest with a couple of usenet know-it-alls,
if that's what this is going to turn into.

So... tell me where in the above did you provide ME a source. As I
stated earlier, "because I am an instructor" doesn't cut it.

I indicated you did not provide ME to back up your statement above.
It's all here in this thread as you can see, I just keep copying and
pasting your very own response to ME. If you call the above statement
a quality answer to your students or students in a newgroup forum,
GAWD HELP YOUR STUDENTS.

On Sep 23, 11:50*am, C Gattman wrote:

I just said that, knucklehead. *Thank you for acknowledging that I
posted sources. BS indicated otherwise.


Actually, you didn't say that. You said, "that McNicoll e-mail and
had removed."



Was I replying to you, or to Beech? *I gave you the last word in our
dialogue, and I extended the same courtesy to BS. *I have no idea why
you can't figure that out, unless you two are some sort of couple.


How many last words have you to give?



Now you're just out here trying to pile on more flames.


Nope, I just wanna keep you posting.

On Sep 23, 6:00*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 23, 5:20*am, C Gattman wrote:

One would think that a yellow line in front of you should be a clear indication that you are still on a taxiway, but
when confronted with signage that isn't exactly clear on directions,

I do study the AFD. *Did you read my response? *The signage is limited in choices as you describe but obviously you have never been at KLEX
or KBTR down on Bravo as an example for clarity of directions. *

That's why I posted the diagram for KPAE. It's the closest example I
can think of out here. I'm agreeing with you. I think pilots gets used
to seeing grass in their peripheral vision when they're taxiing, and
confusion is probably the highest when it seems like you're in a sea
of asphalt. (BTW, Paul Allen has a Messerschmitt 262 out there.)

You can have all your FAA regs and definitions down pat, but, a pilot who can't interpret the signs or stay on the taxiway is dangerous.

I know how to interpret the signage, I never indicated anything differently.

You said "for me, I lose that yellow line in front of me trying to
figure out, " I also said that a pilot who can't "stay on the
taxiway..." You don't need to defend yourself. If doesn't apply to you
(ie, you study the AFD and can stay on the taxiway) I hope you still
agree that somebody to whom it does needs to fix the problem.

With regard to the flashcards or other refresher material, the purpose
is to increase familiarization of the signage so you can interpret
them instantly and pay more attention to the taxiway environment. Sort
of like those WWII aircraft flashcards. The FAA uses memory aids like
"Black Square means you're there" and "okay to dash across the dashed
line" because, however you want to define them, pilot-caused runway
incursions are on the rise. I'm saying this to pilots in general, not
just you.

These problems are common, and exacerbated by fatigue and stress and also fear of making a mistake.

FINALLY, you are coming around. *This is my point I have been making all along. *In my case, fear of making a mistake

Well, you don't want some arrogant jackass in the tower spouting off
on you or questioning your competence when you're just trying to keep
metal from getting bent. I think we all know that feeling.

My rule of thumb, rather sound dumb on the radio then do something dumb on the ground.

That's a good rule. And, probably, if you're having trouble out there,
lots of other people have too so a clueful tower operator should
understand and be ready to help somebody who gets confused there. If
enough people express confusion, hopefully the airport will fix the
problem.

Lexington is -the- example of why we teach to always check the DG with
the runway numbers and clearance before launching. If it can happen to
a crew of two professional pilots, it can certainly happen to lesser-
experienced pilots.

Yesterday I checked out an 11,000-hour ATP in our rental 172s and he
accidentally reported himself "At 25 ready for takeoff" when we were
at Runway 7. (Plus, he kept identifying himself as
"Skywest...er...Cessna 01Hotel") That indicates to me that anybody
can make comm mistakes. As soon as we got on the runway he said "Now
we always check the DG to the number and clearance."

Cheers. It's much more interesting talking about flying than it is
bitching at each other.

-chris

On Sep 23, 10:55*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Now you're just out here trying to pile on more flames.

Nope, I just wanna keep you posting.

That's just weird. Yew just can't quit me, can ya?

You're a sick man.

*plonk*

..

On Sep 22, 10:12*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 22, 9:29*am, D Ramapriya wrote:

Does anyone here have a copy of the accident report of that crash? I
Googled but came up empty...

I agree, fatique doesn't start with a flight, it starts when you wake
up if you didn't get adequate rest the night before..

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.pdf is the accident report


This is a fascinating read. They're on takeoff roll on the short
runway, which has no lights. As they're crossing the long runway,
which has runway lights on, the first officer says, "[that] is weird
with no lights.” The captain responds, "yeah.” Did either one of
them notice those lights and wonder, "we just CROSSED a lighted
runway, Lexington has just one lighted runway"?