Cost of ownership

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of the
higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and more
responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have to
decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the cost.

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation",
downloaded from www.motorglider.org



Eric:

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E? I
wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.

Greg

On Oct 26, 10:13*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of the
higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and more
responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have to
decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the cost..

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation",
downloaded fromwww.motorglider.org

Eric:

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E? *I
wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.

Greg

Eric discusses this a bit in his article he linked to.

Without quoting numbers I can say that a motorglider, at least
anything relatively new and expensive, is just not even something to
consider for saving costs on tows. Avoiding tow cost is just not a
good justification for buying a motorglider. The maintenance costs,
depreciation, capital expense are all much more than just buying a
conventional glider and using a local tow services.

With a few year old 26E I had maintenance costs this season over
$2,000 including new oil pump, replacement drive belt and some other
bits and pieces. I'll have a bill for a few $k to deal with current
issues. You can't even think of a typical motorglider engine in the
same light you think of the Lycoming or Continental doing service in a
tow plane. All the different motorglider engines have their own
issues. The electrics will swap battery issues for engine issues, will
be interesting to see the difference in long term costs there. And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

(when it's working) the motorglider shines with flexibility and
convenience and ground/retrieve crew avoidance, not tow plane
avoidance. It depends on the costs and situation but at times it is
more convenient, cheaper and faster (e.g. long tows behind a Pawnee
are faster) to use a local towplane than to self launch a motorglider,
but just have the engine there if needed for a self retrieve.

Darryl

Darryl Ramm wrote:
And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

I haven't followed the used market much, but "thousands" an hour sounds
excessive for motor-based depreciation. Would pilots really think a
$200,000, 3 year old glider with 10 hours on the engine is the same
value as an $150,000, 3 year old glider, identical except for the 35
hours on the engine?

This might be a good time to remind everyone a DG 400 or PIK 20 E will
be lot cheaper than a new (or newish) ASH 26 E or DG 800, and that there
are new self-launchers that cost about what a used DG 400 costs. Both
Apis and Silent have several models, including electrics.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 27, 9:34*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote:
And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

I haven't followed the used market much, but "thousands" an hour sounds
excessive for motor-based depreciation. Would pilots really think a
$200,000, 3 year old glider with 10 hours on the engine is the same
value as an $150,000, 3 year old glider, identical except for the 35
hours on the engine?

This might be a good time to remind everyone a DG 400 or PIK 20 E will
be lot cheaper than a new (or newish) ASH 26 E or DG 800, and that there
are new self-launchers that cost about what a used DG 400 costs. Both
Apis and Silent have several models, including electrics.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org


Working out depreciation costs are difficult. Afterall most sales are
into a very small specialized market and values are whatever you can
close a deal for and hard to keep track of. An expensive new
motorglider toy might _appreciate_ if there is demand (anybody got an
ASH-31Mi handy?). However since many of these mototgliders are very
fussy to misshandling and engine maintenance issues I personally would
devalue used motorgliders a lot if they had relatively high hours or
something did not give me warm fuzzies about the previous owner(s) or
people who maintained them. And I'd have no problem knocking of $k's
per hour for the first few hours on a new high-end motorglider. I've
looked at for people where I recommend walking away on a $150k glider
because of dubious issues. Depreciated to next to not worth the
hassle, well maybe some other sucker pays what is being asked.

Oh and the $30k premium for an engine is not for a new ASH-26E/31Mi.
You need to compare current pricing for the the ASG-29/18m to the
ASH-31Mi/18m price and the difference is more significant. The old
price delta on a 26/26E was around EUR 30k, that is about $45k now,
but the base cost is also out of date and motorgliders often get
configured with options like long range tanks etc. that add some more
costs. Then buying an ASH-26 (non-motorglider) I assume you are paying
extra costs for a motorglider prepared fueslage that would not
encumber an ASG-29, besides people would buy the more competitive 29
over a 26 (non-motor) although maybe the 31 without motor might be fun
in open-class. But as you say there are other lower costs options.

Darryl

Greg Arnold wrote:

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of
the higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and
more responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have
to decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the
cost.

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation", downloaded from www.motorglider.org

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E?
I wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.
The costs for maintaining the airframe and it's instruments are the same
as any glider, because the vibration from the Wankel rotary motor is so
small it doesn't cause any problems.

The annual is more expensive than a towed glider because of the
propulsion system. My cost for the annual is low because of special
circumstances, so asking your mechanic, or someone like Rex Mayes (who
does a lot of 26 E's), will provide a better number.

Routine maintenance is very small:

* New batteries every 3 or 4 years: ~$100 plus installation (owner
can do it)
* If you taxi a lot, a new main tire every 3 or 4 years: ~$100 plus
installation (owner can do it)
* New coolant hoses every 5 years: ~$150 for the hoses and new
antifreeze, 1 or 2 hours shop time, plus removing/replacing the
engine (2 hours total). Usually done when the engine has to be
removed for other reasons.
* the carburettor might need tuning every few years.

The major maintenance costs will be "black swans" - unexpected events.
I've owned my glider for 15 seasons. It now has 3000 hours airframe, and
147 hours engine. Over the years, replacements include the fan (AD) and
muffler (AD), both of which were early "new model" problems. Also
replaced were the propeller extension motor when I suspected it was
getting noisy, but it was probably OK. The water pump was replaced
preemptively, just because it had 130 hours and the engine was out for
other reasons. My cost doesn't mean much, because the parts were a lot
cheaper when the $ was stronger, and I do most of the work with the aid
of a friendly mechanic. Ask Rex about current costs.

Still, my major costs due to the propulsion system are the cost of
buying it (about $30,000) and the cost of insuring that extra purchase
price. At 5% interest, the "opportunity cost" is $1500 year; the extra
insurance cost is about $500, for a total extra yearly cost of $2000.

My major savings are tow costs, retrieve costs, and travel costs. A
2000' AGL launch takes less than 0.5 gallons of 100LL, so 50 flights a
year x $40 launch = $2000 saved. Without the motor, I'd land out about
10 times a year, so guessing at $100 average for tow and trailer
retrieves = $1000. That's $3000 avoided costs.

But wait, there's mo I can fly from the airport that's 4 miles away
instead of driving 110 miles to the nearest towplane. That ability is
almost priceless, but let's say for a weekend (2 flights) I avoid 4
hours and 220 miles of driving, and a night in a cheap motel: $30 gas +
$40 motel = $35/flight; times 50 flights = $1750.

So for me, I avoid $2000 (tows) + $1000 (retrieves) + $1750 (driving,
motels) = $4750. Net of the extra ownership costs ($3500) = $1250. After
15 years x $1250 = $18,750, I'm way ahead of the game, but a major
"black swan" event would change that.

Your mileage (literally and figuratively) will definitely vary, so run
the numbers to get an idea of your cost. Once you have the dollars, you
can begin considering if the cost and complexity are worth the
additional amount and quality of the flying you'll get.

One more thing: this is the 5th glider I've owned, by far the most
expensive to buy, but my wife thinks it's the very best one ever,
because I always get home!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 27, 8:37*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...Without the motor, I'd land out about
10 times a year, so guessing at $100 average for tow and trailer
retrieves = $1000.

You are a braver man than I am Eric. I've landed out once since 2003
and that was an airport - but without a motor I probably fly
differently when things get dodgy. I don't have a soaring operation
close to home - but the air is generally stable around the SF Bay so
I'd have relocate by ground or air either way. As you said -
everyone's mileage varies.

Aside from the absolute capital cost my main issue is I just don't
want to do all the additional fiddling and troubleshooting that a
motor demands - at least not while my free time is in short supply. I
used to work with my Dad on his Nimbus 3DM and we had more mechanical
gremlins ground us for days on end than I'd care to recall. Maybe
after a few seasons it all sorts itself out but I see lots of guys at
the airport heads down in the engine bay.

Do you think motorgliders are owned disproportionately by pilots who
are fully or semi-retired? That is my casual observation, but I don't
know if it's true in general. If true it could be simply that that's
where the money is or it could be that's when the extra time comes
available.

9B

Andy wrote:
On Oct 27, 8:37 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

...Without the motor, I'd land out about
10 times a year, so guessing at $100 average for tow and trailer
retrieves = $1000.


You are a braver man than I am Eric. I've landed out once since 2003
and that was an airport - but without a motor I probably fly
differently when things get dodgy.
By "land out", I really meant "land away from home". I generally fly
within reach of an airport, even with the motorglider. During my 50 or
so flights each year, I'll typically restart the motor about 10 times,
and maybe only one will be over a field instead of an airport.
I don't have a soaring operation
close to home - but the air is generally stable around the SF Bay so
I'd have relocate by ground or air either way. As you said -
everyone's mileage varies.

Aside from the absolute capital cost my main issue is I just don't
want to do all the additional fiddling and troubleshooting that a
motor demands - at least not while my free time is in short supply. I
used to work with my Dad on his Nimbus 3DM and we had more mechanical
gremlins ground us for days on end than I'd care to recall. Maybe
after a few seasons it all sorts itself out but I see lots of guys at
the airport heads down in the engine bay.

It can happen. I've been fortunate that engine problems have never
interfered with flying, as I've always been able to do maintenance
during unflyable periods. When I flew towed gliders, I was out of luck
many times, when the towplane was down, or a tow pilot couldn't be
scheduled.
Do you think motorgliders are owned disproportionately by pilots who
are fully or semi-retired? That is my casual observation, but I don't
know if it's true in general.
I'm not sure either. I suspect it's true, and it certainly makes it
easier to find days with good soaring! I'm hoping the electric powered
gliders will reduce the fiddling to nearly zero, and attract pilots that
are put off by the motor maintenance and more complex operation of the
gas powered gliders.
If true it could be simply that that's
where the money is or it could be that's when the extra time comes
available.

The older pilot will tend to have more money for gliders than the
younger pilot, for obvious reasons, and will have the time to fully
utilize the glider. That makes it a better value.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org