The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will
withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft
and deck vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Dan" wrote in message
...
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand
heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck
vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Every LHD comes with an unlimited supply of water that can be used for
cooling.
Pump the water into a double skinned section of the deck (analogous to a
"wet wing" aircraft fuel tank) designated for use by the problematic
aircraft.
Cooling water directly on the deck surface will cause other problems - steam
and hot spray getting blasted in all directions is not a good idea.

On Dec 10, 2:23*am, Dan wrote:
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

* *It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will
withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft
and deck vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Use carbon composite plates. They're the materials on the wingtips
(not the infamous bottom that killed Columbia). Those are more heat
resistant, and less brittle if I'm not mistaken.

Dan wrote:
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will
withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft
and deck vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre.

Continuous seawater irrigation seems like the best option to me.

In article ,
Alan Dicey wrote:

Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre.

Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket
type material. Blending something like that in with non-skid coating
shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

On Dec 10, 2:59*pm, (John Clear) wrote:
In article ,
Alan Dicey wrote:



Indeed. *The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. *They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre..

Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket
type material. *Blending something like that in with non-skid coating
shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation.

John
--
John Clear - * * * * * * * * * * * *http://www.clear-prop.org/

Still not really durable enough to handle aircraft weight. Was less
heat resistant than bottom portion. Think of it this way, bottom part
gets really hot on reentry, shields top part. You could see some
scorch marks on most of the post landing photos. Looks like little
black scuff marks on foreward part near wing.

Probably looks like a back to the drawing board moment. Oh, hey,
anybody figure out we're landing on a carrier and we have some really
high exhaust temps....

Remember the old drawing that went around what aerodynamicist built,
weapons guys, all that, and what the customer wanted. Nothing changes.

In article ,
frank wrote:

Still not really durable enough to handle aircraft weight. Was less
heat resistant than bottom portion. Think of it this way, bottom part
gets really hot on reentry, shields top part. You could see some
scorch marks on most of the post landing photos. Looks like little
black scuff marks on foreward part near wing.

Yeah, the blankets on the top top arent't as heat resistant as the
tiles, but I don't think MV-22 or F-35B exhaust is quite as hot as
hitting the atmosphere at 17,000mph.

Wiki says one type of blanket (FRSI) is good to 700F and another (FIB)
is good to 1200F.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_S...tection_system

Probably looks like a back to the drawing board moment. Oh, hey,
anybody figure out we're landing on a carrier and we have some really
high exhaust temps....

The thermal protection is available, they just need to figure out
the durablity issue. I'm sure for a few billion, someone will be able
to mix some nomex into the non-skit coating.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/