Youth in soaring, and anything

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
- with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
- who would like to extend the time that their offspring
wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:



On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

There's nothing in the above posts that I would disagree with.

However, I would add that the 18-25 group are starting families and
careers. Unlike the job scene when I was in that age group, today's
employers tend to expect 60+ hours a week (Even though they only pay
for 40.) The term "wage slave" rings true.

Today, entry level jobs pay so little that many employees have second
jobs to make ends meet and repay their staggering college tuition debt
- sometimes as much as $250,000. I get the feeling few young people
have much in the way of "free time" or disposable income.

40 years ago only top level managers were "exempt" and even relatively
senior employees got overtime pay. That meant almost everyone got
every weekend off. Few had tuition debt to repay.

The observation that the groups who still have some "free time" and
disposable income are those with few ordinary obligations also rings
true. Fortunately, there are enough of them to meet our growth
goals. We just have to find them and let them know about our sport.
I think it's likely that "cherry picking" other groups that attract
this unencumbered demographic is the way to go.

Bill D

Well, the 18-25 crowd is busy with school.... and school is expensive
and time consuming. After that, they are working, trying to get
"grounded" as an adult, buy a home, get married, this sort of thing.
Then perhaps kids... and only when the child is old enough to not need
constant attention, and they have financially recovered from all of
the diapers, pre-school and daycare fees, etc, is there time for
something other than parenting... thus the 35 crowd.

This is where I sit, I wasn't able to start flying until recently, at
37, despite having an interest in flying since age 16.

Incidentally, I didn't start sailing until about the same time,
despite an interest in that also.

-tom

On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:



On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. Soaring tends to do well in
countries with a thriving middle class. The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
to a foreclosure. Some of these young adults really want to fly but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:





On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
those toys up for sale now?

Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.

In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.

Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.

Brad

On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad wrote:
On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan wrote:





On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
those toys up for sale now?

Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.

In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.

Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.

Brad- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
long ago.
Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
rides still go on.
Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
sometime.
If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
be enough to scare a lot of them off.
And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
UH

The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.

I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.

Ryan

On Dec 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad wrote:





On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan wrote:

On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
* - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
* * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
* - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
* * wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
those toys up for sale now?

Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.

In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.

Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.

Brad- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
long ago.
Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
rides still go on.
Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
sometime.
If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
be enough to scare a lot of them off.
And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
UH