Why is Stealth So Important?

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:51:14 -0600, "Gene Storey"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

Yep. Lots of losses of helicopters. Lots of helicopters. Lots of
intrepid Army aviators shot down multiple times. An incredibly
hazardous mission.

So hazardous the missions were flown by Warrants:

"These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of
the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the
same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast
to commissioned officers, who are generalists."

To put it nicely.


Yes, a lot of Army aviators are warrant officers. A lot are also
commissioned officers.

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or the
other.

Whether or not a warrant officer is an appropriate rank for a job has
nothing at all to do with the hazard involved.

One might want to review the ranks of the POWs in the Vietnam war to
check regarding the hazard and warrant relationship.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:51:14 -0600, "Gene Storey"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

Yep. Lots of losses of helicopters. Lots of helicopters. Lots of
intrepid Army aviators shot down multiple times. An incredibly
hazardous mission.

So hazardous the missions were flown by Warrants:

"These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of
the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the
same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast
to commissioned officers, who are generalists."

To put it nicely.


Yes, a lot of Army aviators are warrant officers. A lot are also
commissioned officers.

Yep. But the great majority of Army aviators are, and were at that time,
WO's/CWO's.


Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or the
other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the situation that
existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were indeed "just" WO's, so to
speak. A few years back the Army came up with this nifty plan to
"commission" its senior CWO's (which would I guess make your "oxymoron" a
reality) so that they could meet all of the requirements set forth for
commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it all
turned out in the end, but I *think* they made it happen. If there are any
serving CWO's out there, feel free to correct that view.


Whether or not a warrant officer is an appropriate rank for a job has
nothing at all to do with the hazard involved.

Very true.


One might want to review the ranks of the POWs in the Vietnam war to
check regarding the hazard and warrant relationship.

That would be a factor of geography more than anything else, as the WO
aviators were doing the vast majority of their flying down south where the
likelihood of becoming a POW was quite a bit less--unfortunately, the
likelihood of finding yourself *dead* was not that much different, as can be
attested by the fact that over a thousand Huey pilots died during the war.
That said, I do remember serving with one former aviator type CW4 (he had
lost his flight ticket due to medical reasons and was serving out his last
years in the maintenance arena, and helped support our construction
operation in Central America) who did indeed end the war as a POW. He had
been shot down while flying an OH-6 Loach near the DMZ, and got snagged by
the NVA and transported northward. I believe his observer/co-pilot did not
make it.

Brooks



Ed Rasimus

"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or the
other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the situation that
existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were indeed "just" WO's, so to
speak. A few years back the Army came up with this nifty plan to
"commission" its senior CWO's (which would I guess make your "oxymoron" a
reality) so that they could meet all of the requirements set forth for
commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it all
turned out in the end, but I *think* they made it happen. If there are any
serving CWO's out there, feel free to correct that view.

There are "just" WOs and Commissioned Warrant Officers now. The WO1 rank is not
a Commissioned Warrant Officer, but all CWO2 through CWO5 ranks are Commissioned
Warrant Officers. Last I knew:

Army has WO1 - CWO4 (may have adopted CWO5 by now)

Air Force has no Warrant Officers

Navy and Marines have CWO2 - CWO5 (no longer any WO1s)

John Weiss
LCDR, USN, Ret (not a Warrant Officer)

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:SsUNb.70673$nt4.95664@attbi_s51...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or the
other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the situation
that
existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were indeed "just" WO's, so
to
speak. A few years back the Army came up with this nifty plan to
"commission" its senior CWO's (which would I guess make your "oxymoron"
a
reality) so that they could meet all of the requirements set forth for
commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it
all
turned out in the end, but I *think* they made it happen. If there are
any
serving CWO's out there, feel free to correct that view.

There are "just" WOs and Commissioned Warrant Officers now. The WO1 rank
is not
a Commissioned Warrant Officer, but all CWO2 through CWO5 ranks are
Commissioned
Warrant Officers. Last I knew:

Army has WO1 - CWO4 (may have adopted CWO5 by now)

The CWO-5 grade has been used in the Army since around 1999/2000.

Brooks


Air Force has no Warrant Officers

Navy and Marines have CWO2 - CWO5 (no longer any WO1s)

John Weiss
LCDR, USN, Ret (not a Warrant Officer)

From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/16/2004 10:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: SsUNb.70673$nt4.95664@attbi_s51

"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or the
other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the situation that
existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were indeed "just" WO's, so to
speak. A few years back the Army came up with this nifty plan to
"commission" its senior CWO's (which would I guess make your "oxymoron" a
reality) so that they could meet all of the requirements set forth for
commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it
all
turned out in the end, but I *think* they made it happen. If there are any
serving CWO's out there, feel free to correct that view.

There are "just" WOs and Commissioned Warrant Officers now. The WO1 rank is
not
a Commissioned Warrant Officer, but all CWO2 through CWO5 ranks are
Commissioned
Warrant Officers. Last I knew:

Army has WO1 - CWO4 (may have adopted CWO5 by now)

Air Force has no Warrant Officers

Navy and Marines have CWO2 - CWO5 (no longer any WO1s)

John Weiss
LCDR, USN, Ret (not a Warrant Officer)


If memory serves the C in CWO is for chief. I don't believe warrants are
considered commissioned.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

B2431 wrote:
From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/16/2004 10:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: SsUNb.70673$nt4.95664@attbi_s51

"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or
the other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the
situation that existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were
indeed "just" WO's, so to speak. A few years back the Army came up
with this nifty plan to "commission" its senior CWO's (which would
I guess make your "oxymoron" a reality) so that they could meet all
of the requirements set forth for commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ
stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it all turned out in the end,
but I *think* they made it happen. If there are any serving CWO's
out there, feel free to correct that view.

There are "just" WOs and Commissioned Warrant Officers now. The WO1
rank is not
a Commissioned Warrant Officer, but all CWO2 through CWO5 ranks are
Commissioned
Warrant Officers. Last I knew:

Army has WO1 - CWO4 (may have adopted CWO5 by now)

Air Force has no Warrant Officers

Navy and Marines have CWO2 - CWO5 (no longer any WO1s)

John Weiss
LCDR, USN, Ret (not a Warrant Officer)


If memory serves the C in CWO is for chief. I don't believe warrants
are considered commissioned.


This is a fairly recent change, but a Chief Warrant Officer is now
categorized as a "commissioned warrant officer," which is a class of officer
distinct from both "warrant officer" and "commissioned officer."

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/alma...as/officers.ht
ml

"The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive
commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2.
These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the
president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same
source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to
commissioned officers, who are generalists. There are no warrant officers in
the Air Force."

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
ink.net...
B2431 wrote:
From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/16/2004 10:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: SsUNb.70673$nt4.95664@attbi_s51

"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

Don't know the source of your quote, but it starts out with an
oxymoron, "commissioned warrant officers". They area either one or
the other.

He is probably confusing the contemporary situation with the
situation that existed in the Vietnam era, when Army WO's were
indeed "just" WO's, so to speak. A few years back the Army came up
with this nifty plan to "commission" its senior CWO's (which would
I guess make your "oxymoron" a reality) so that they could meet all
of the requirements set forth for commissioned officers (i.e., UCMJ
stuff, command, etc.)--not sure how it all turned out in the end,
but I *think* they made it happen. If there are any serving CWO's
out there, feel free to correct that view.

There are "just" WOs and Commissioned Warrant Officers now. The WO1
rank is not
a Commissioned Warrant Officer, but all CWO2 through CWO5 ranks are
Commissioned
Warrant Officers. Last I knew:

Army has WO1 - CWO4 (may have adopted CWO5 by now)

Air Force has no Warrant Officers

Navy and Marines have CWO2 - CWO5 (no longer any WO1s)

John Weiss
LCDR, USN, Ret (not a Warrant Officer)


If memory serves the C in CWO is for chief. I don't believe warrants
are considered commissioned.


This is a fairly recent change, but a Chief Warrant Officer is now
categorized as a "commissioned warrant officer," which is a class of
officer
distinct from both "warrant officer" and "commissioned officer."


http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/alma...as/officers.ht
ml

"The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they
receive
commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2.
These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the
president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same
source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to
commissioned officers, who are generalists. There are no warrant officers
in
the Air Force."

Exactly. Thanks for the clarification, Tom.

Brooks


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
ink.net...


This is a fairly recent change, but a Chief Warrant Officer is now
categorized as a "commissioned warrant officer," which is a class of
officer
distinct from both "warrant officer" and "commissioned officer."


Around 1867 the RN began rewarding its long-serving warrant officers with
commissions. The USN followed suit in the Naval Personnel Act of 1899 (the
same act that eliminated the rank of commodore and the Engineer Corps). The
grade was commissioned warrant officer, but the actual titles were "Chief
Boatswain," "Chief Gunner," "Chief Carpenter" and so on, and the "C's" for
"chief" and "commissioned" have become confused over the years. Since 1899,
USN commissioned warrant officers wore the regular officer's cap bade with
shield and eagle. The old WO cap device, plain crossed anchors, has
disappeared along with the "pin-striper" WO-1 rank.

The Marines adopted CWOs in the 1920s, the Army in WW2. I'm not sure about
the USCG. At some point after WW2, legislation officially replaced
"commissioned" with "chief" in the title.

--Justin

"B2431" wrote...

If memory serves the C in CWO is for chief. I don't believe warrants are
considered commissioned.

Partially right...

The "C" in CWO does stand for "Chief," but the CWO2 - CWO5 ranks are indeed also
Commissioned. A few quick references:

Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are
specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The
lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive
commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These
commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the
United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned
officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are
generalists. There are no warrant officers in the Air Force. --
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/alma.../officers.html

Officers in the Navy are either Line officers or Staff Corps. Among these
are also Limited Duty Officers and Commissioned Warrant Officers. Staff Corps
and Commission Warrant Officers wear Insignia in place of the Line officer's
star. -- http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ranks/rankrate.html

Commissioned officers in the Navy are either Line officers or Staff Corps
officers. Some have advanced through the enlisted rates and are designated for
duty in certain technical fields. These are Limited Duty Officers (LDO) and
commisisoned warrant officers (CWO). CWOs and Staff corps LDOs wear their
specialty insignia on the sleeve of the dress blue uniforms and on their
shoulder boards in place of the star worn by Line officers. On Winter Blue and
khaki uniforms, the specialty insignia is a collar device worn on the left
collar while the rank device is worn on the right. --
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...t/ldo-war.html

Also see http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...rs/o-rank.html


BTW, I made an error earlier -- the USMC still has WO1s; the Navy and Coast
Guard do not.

"John R Weiss" wrote:


BTW, I made an error earlier -- the USMC still has WO1s; the Navy and Coast
Guard do not.


....and it appears that I made an error also...I should have said
that there are no commissioned WO's in the Canadian military.
Sorry.
--

-Gord.