Cirrus crash midair

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
..

Cirrus is the "fork-tailed doctor killer" of our era. The old V-tailed
Bonanzas tended to attract low-time, low-competence, high-income pilots,
and
Cirrus aircraft are doing the same thing. I don't know if Beechcraft ever
deliberately tried to target that market as Cirrus is doing, though.

I remember that back in the mid 60s, Flying magazine had
an article on doctor involved accidents. At that time doctors,
as a group, were involved in about a third of all fatals in
private GA aircraft. A lot of these doctors were experienced
pilots, and the majority their accidents involved weather.

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.
Oh, and I seem to remember that Bonanzas were involved
in some of the incidents.

On Feb 7, 8:03*pm, "Ian D" wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message

...
.



Cirrus is the "fork-tailed doctor killer" of our era. The old V-tailed
Bonanzas tended to attract low-time, low-competence, high-income pilots,
and
Cirrus aircraft are doing the same thing. I don't know if Beechcraft ever
deliberately tried to target that market as Cirrus is doing, though.

I remember that back in the mid 60s, Flying magazine had
an article on doctor involved accidents. *At that time doctors,
as a group, were involved in about a third of all fatals in
private GA aircraft. *A lot of these doctors were experienced
pilots, and the majority their accidents involved weather.

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. *Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.
Oh, and I seem to remember that Bonanzas were involved
in some of the incidents.

This is mostly true. I had many doctors and lawyers as students during
the Bonanza accident period.
In many there was indeed an arrogance, and coupled with their natural
desire to achieve a short time line on anything taught to them, many
had retention issues.
The real killer in the Bonanza craze wasn't arrogance per se but a
general lack of proper training in handing an airplane with a VERY
clean wing in instrument conditions. Many of the Bonanza crashes were
the result of pilots getting the aircraft into weather they couldn't
handle. The Bo, being extremely clean, was exceptionally capable of
getting nose low in turns. Many of the fatals involved pilots applying
back pressure when sensing a nose low condition instead of swallowing
the bank FIRST or SIMULTANEOUSLY, thus swallowing the bank before
applying a positive pitch input.
This VERY BASIC ERROR in a nose low condition just served to increase
the nose low condition. It didn't take the Bo long at all to reach Vne
and beyond. At that point many Bo's lost wings to the high g loads
that became available with the greatly increased airspeed.
The Bonanza was and is a fine airplane, but like any airplane,
especially with a slippery wing, on instruments you need to be VERY
careful when recovering from a nose low condition. Arrogance and lack
of basics in a Bonanza nose low on the clocks was a killer equation!
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:903eb1bf-9d81-4282-8979-
...

This is mostly true. I had many doctors and lawyers as students during
the Bonanza accident period.
In many there was indeed an arrogance, and coupled with their natural
desire to achieve a short time line on anything taught to them, many
had retention issues.
The real killer in the Bonanza craze wasn't arrogance per se but a
general lack of proper training in handing an airplane with a VERY
clean wing in instrument conditions. Many of the Bonanza crashes were
the result of pilots getting the aircraft into weather they couldn't
handle. The Bo, being extremely clean, was exceptionally capable of
getting nose low in turns. Many of the fatals involved pilots applying
back pressure when sensing a nose low condition instead of swallowing
the bank FIRST or SIMULTANEOUSLY, thus swallowing the bank before
applying a positive pitch input.
This VERY BASIC ERROR in a nose low condition just served to increase
the nose low condition. It didn't take the Bo long at all to reach Vne
and beyond. At that point many Bo's lost wings to the high g loads
that became available with the greatly increased airspeed.
The Bonanza was and is a fine airplane, but like any airplane,
especially with a slippery wing, on instruments you need to be VERY
careful when recovering from a nose low condition. Arrogance and lack
of basics in a Bonanza nose low on the clocks was a killer equation!
Dudley Henriques

I wonder if the quickest, safest and least costly solution to a similar
problem might be a couple of hours of glider instruction--and a glider of
medium performance or greater.

Admittedly, this is advocacy above my own experience; but it is the first
place (other than a true-motion sim) that I would look for my own use. And
besides, that glider intro flight was a lot of fun!

Peter

On Feb 7, 9:26*pm, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:903eb1bf-9d81-4282-8979-
...

This is mostly true. I had many doctors and lawyers as students during
the Bonanza accident period.
In many there was indeed an arrogance, and coupled with their natural
desire to achieve a short time line on anything taught to them, many
had retention issues.
The real killer in the Bonanza craze wasn't arrogance per se but a
general lack of proper training in handing an airplane with a VERY
clean wing in instrument conditions. Many of the Bonanza crashes were
the result of pilots getting the aircraft into weather they couldn't
handle. The Bo, being extremely clean, was exceptionally capable of
getting nose low in turns. Many of the fatals involved pilots applying
back pressure when sensing a nose low condition instead of swallowing
the bank FIRST or SIMULTANEOUSLY, thus swallowing the bank before
applying a positive pitch input.
This VERY BASIC ERROR in a nose low condition just served to increase
the nose low condition. It didn't take the Bo long at all to reach Vne
and beyond. At that point many Bo's lost wings to the high g loads
that became available with the greatly increased airspeed.
The Bonanza was and is a fine airplane, but like any airplane,
especially with a slippery wing, on instruments you need to be VERY
careful when recovering from a nose low condition. Arrogance and lack
of basics in a Bonanza nose low on the clocks was a killer equation!
Dudley Henriques

I wonder if the quickest, safest and least costly solution to a similar
problem might be a couple of hours of glider instruction--and a glider of
medium performance or greater.

Admittedly, this is advocacy above my own experience; but it is the first
place (other than a true-motion sim) that I would look for my own use. *And
besides, that glider intro flight was a lot of fun!

Peter

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:903eb1bf-9d81-4282-8979-
...

This is mostly true. I had many doctors and lawyers as students during
the Bonanza accident period.
In many there was indeed an arrogance, and coupled with their natural
desire to achieve a short time line on anything taught to them, many
had retention issues.
The real killer in the Bonanza craze wasn't arrogance per se but a
general lack of proper training in handing an airplane with a VERY
clean wing in instrument conditions. Many of the Bonanza crashes were
the result of pilots getting the aircraft into weather they couldn't
handle. The Bo, being extremely clean, was exceptionally capable of
getting nose low in turns. Many of the fatals involved pilots applying
back pressure when sensing a nose low condition instead of swallowing
the bank FIRST or SIMULTANEOUSLY, thus swallowing the bank before
applying a positive pitch input.
This VERY BASIC ERROR in a nose low condition just served to increase
the nose low condition. It didn't take the Bo long at all to reach Vne
and beyond. At that point many Bo's lost wings to the high g loads
that became available with the greatly increased airspeed.
The Bonanza was and is a fine airplane, but like any airplane,
especially with a slippery wing, on instruments you need to be VERY
careful when recovering from a nose low condition. Arrogance and lack
of basics in a Bonanza nose low on the clocks was a killer equation!
Dudley Henriques

I wonder if the quickest, safest and least costly solution to a similar
problem might be a couple of hours of glider instruction--and a glider of
medium performance or greater.

Admittedly, this is advocacy above my own experience; but it is the first
place (other than a true-motion sim) that I would look for my own use. And
besides, that glider intro flight was a lot of fun!

Peter

I've always advocated glider instruction as a positive factor for any
pilot in a total training regimen. There is no doubt that glider
training can contribute to a better overall powered pilot flying a
powered aircraft. Along the same line of reasoning, aerobatics is of
immeasurable benefit in increasing basic skill sets to higher levels.
The bottom line in any training regimen involves not only the material
covered but how the time is spent by both the instructor and the
student as they interface together to form the teacher/student
equation.
If I had to pinpoint a single attribute to be the most important a
pilot could posses exiting a training program it would be the
acquirement of a sound sense of professional judgment coupled with
good basic flying skills.
In many of the Bonanza crashes, this factor unfortunately didn't seem
to be present.
DH

"Ian D" writes:

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.

Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe
and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that
fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc
expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he
could cheat it in the air.

--
The long-lived books of tomorrow are concealed somewhere amongst the
so-far unpublished MSS of today.
- Philip Unwin

In article ,
Bug Dout wrote:

"Ian D" writes:

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.

Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe
and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that
fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc
expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he
could cheat it in the air.

I can certainly see where, being a doctor, flying might seem easy by
comparison and might not get the respect it deserves. The basic training
certainly is easier, just compare the amount of time you need to
dedicate to getting, say, a PPL with the amount of time needed for
medical school. But just because it's easy to learn the basics doesn't
mean you can treat it without respect....

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon