Why is Stealth So Important?

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

Why?


I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?


A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

Gee, I guess we should have frozen military development about forty years
ago, huh? Would that have made you happier?

Brooks


all the best -- Dan Ford

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

Why?

Similar levels of training, duties, and experience.
Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more
experienced, he probably has better judgement, too.
(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is
"Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer",
(or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable).

(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, any more than the CWO wears lieutenant's
bars.

Top would still wear his stripes. He would simply become a
commissioned NCO. If it can work with a warrant, it can work with the
E grades.

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all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

Why?

Similar levels of training, duties, and experience.
Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more
experienced, he probably has better judgement, too.
(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

NCO's have their jobs, and very important ones at that--there is a reason
they have oft been referred to as the "backbone" of whatever service is the
subject of the discussion. Commissioned officers have their jobs as well,
and NCO's traditionally don't really care to assume those duties (even the
platoon sergeant forced to serve as platoon leader due to a shortage of LT's
usually, in my experience, looks forward to getting a new LT if for no other
reason than to reduce the amount of time he has to dedicate to apaerwork and
meetings that he otherwise would not have to manage). The policy of
commissioning CWO's to allow them more freedom of action, and to better
utilize the total available officer manpower pool, in no way implies or
justifies commissioning "non-commissioned" officers.


I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is
"Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer",
(or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable).

Uhmmm--the poster was claiming that First Sergeants were the ones supposedly
being called "sir", not warrants. And in the Army, the common form of
address for CWO's is "chief", though you can also call them "Mister" the
same as you do a "Wobbly One".

Brooks

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

What, the push-ups?

Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry
Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

What, the push-ups?

No, the insane idea that first sergeants are being routinely called "sir".

Brooks


Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry
Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote:

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

Sometime in the late 1950s, the US services
created the enlisted "supergrades", E-8 and E-9
- specifically for the purpose of eventually
doing away with the Warrant Officer grade.

It took more than a dozen years, but the USAF
did exactly that. (They could hang in until
retirement... but zero new ones were created.)

BTW - in the Kaiserslautern (Germany) Military
Community (headed by the Brigadier running the
86th TFG at Ramstein), we had LOTS of Army types
in the many base housing areas.

There were three sections of base housing: enlisted,
senior NCOs, and officer. My neighbor across the
apartment hall (in senior NCO housing) was an Army
CWO - and we both had very similar training, duties,
and responsibilites in our respective fields.

- John T. former MSgt, USAF

Hey Dan,

Where are you coming from anyway? What is your point? You sound like
you are on some kinda high horse? Sorry if you don't agree that Chief
Warrant Officers should be commissioned and you think it is foolish,
but where are you coming from and why? Did a CWO **** in your wheaties
long ago? My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the
ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of
having been there and done that. And the upward transgression to more
responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better
pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly,
we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what
happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's,
(NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a
commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are
no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going
with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for
enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any
kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know
the score!

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"fudog50" wrote in message
...

snip

Complete agreement with your words regarding the acceptability and wisdom of
commissioning the CWO's, but...

My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the
ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of
having been there and done that.

IMO, that depends on how the "Mustang" made it to where he is. If you are
talking LDO's in the Navy, sure. But coming from the Army side I have seen
more than a couple of former enlisted or former NCO's have real problems
making the transition to officer. Unlike those LDO's, however, and unlike
the majority of WO/CWO's, a lot of those "prior service" LT's did not have
all that many years of service under their belt when they made the switch
(most are still in their early or mid twenties). I saw two characteristics
pop up in the prior service junior officers all too often--they either
wanted to micromanage thier platoons, thinking they were still NCO's
somewhere in the back of their minds, or they were among the worst of the
misguided "I'm an officer, therefore ever-so-much-superior to you" types
when dealing with their troops and NCO's (thank goodness the latter was the
less prevalent behavior). That does not describe all of them--but it does
describe enough of them that it led to the observation being made by more
than just your's truly.

Brooks

And the upward transgression to more
responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better
pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly,
we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what
happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's,
(NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a
commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are
no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going
with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for
enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any
kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know
the score!

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com