Fat boy wants to soar...

On Mar 18, 2:00*am, toggles mcfarley
wrote:
Hi,
*after a hiatus of nearly 20 years I'd like to start soaring again
only this time I'm carrying a few extra pounds. Having decided on this
last year I started working on the weight in Jan and am down to 230lb
in boxers though I am continuing work on it.

It's really not a big deal. Yeah, most gliders have the seats
placarded as 110 kg (242.5 lb), but it's not as hard a limit as some
people like to make out. All gliders are built to take at least 5g of
acceleration at the placarded maximum weights, so they have huge
amounts of reserve strength in normal flying never going above 2 - 3
Gs.

There are a number of things that impose weight limits, but the main
one for the standard 110 kg per-seat limit is that the seat belt
straps and mounting points are rated for a 40g load with a 110 kg
pilot in the event of a crash. If you're a bit over, like me, then try
to keep any crashes down to 35g.

Weight of the non-lifting parts is an important limit. You can
compensate for that one with a light instructor, in which case feel
free to throw the beast around as much as you like. Otherwise go easy
on the aerobatics and fly a bit slower in rough air than the book
says.

The other technical thing to worry about is CofG. Most gliders are
very tolerant of a too-forward C of G. It's pretty common to not be
able to completely trim out the elevator force in a thermalling turn,
even for pilots within the placarded limits, but you'd have to be
grossly out of trim for it not to fly ok. I'm not very proud of this,
but I once forgot to look under the seat for ballast and took off in a
Janus with around 145 - 150 kg in the front seat, between me and the
ballast I didn't notice, and with a reasonably large guy in the back
seat as well. I did notice on liftoff that the stick needed to be
maybe half an inch further back than normal, but it flew just fine
with no problems at all in tight thermalling or in the flare on
landing, and it could still be stalled at right around the normal
speed.

More of a worry, especially with operators in the USA, seems to be
insurance. Some places are absolutely strict about doing everything by
the book. As far as I can tell they are worried about claims being
denied in the event of an accident. Or maybe being sued, I don't
know. Here in NZ a claim could only be denied if exceeding a
particular placarded limit can be shown to have contributed to the
crash, but it may be different elsewhere. Excess weight is of great
concern in powered aircraft as it can easily contribute to failure to
take off in the available space, or failure to get an adequate rate of
climb, but that is far less of an issue in gliders where we regularly
throw 200 kg of ballast in the wings and we're probably only talking
at most 10 or 20 kg extra in a pilot. Maybe it's a different attitude
here but, for example, it is absolutely standard for agricultural
operators to take off at 30% over the manufacturer's MTOW and the
aviation authorities and insurers are happy with it as long as the
excess can be jettisoned in a few seconds.

On Mar 17, 8:49*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:00*am, toggles mcfarley
wrote:

Hi,
*after a hiatus of nearly 20 years I'd like to start soaring again
only this time I'm carrying a few extra pounds. Having decided on this
last year I started working on the weight in Jan and am down to 230lb
in boxers though I am continuing work on it.

It's really not a big deal. Yeah, most gliders have the seats
placarded as 110 kg (242.5 lb), but it's not as hard a limit as some
people like to make out. All gliders are built to take at least 5g of
acceleration at the placarded maximum weights, so they have huge
amounts of reserve strength in normal flying never going above 2 - 3
Gs.

There are a number of things that impose weight limits, but the main
one for the standard 110 kg per-seat limit is that the seat belt
straps and mounting points are rated for a 40g load with a 110 kg
pilot in the event of a crash. If you're a bit over, like me, then try
to keep any crashes down to 35g.

Weight of the non-lifting parts is an important limit. You can
compensate for that one with a light instructor, in which case feel
free to throw the beast around as much as you like. Otherwise go easy
on the aerobatics and fly a bit slower in rough air than the book
says.

The other technical thing to worry about is CofG. *Most gliders are
very tolerant of a too-forward C of G. It's pretty common to not be
able to completely trim out the elevator force in a thermalling turn,
even for pilots within the placarded limits, but you'd have to be
grossly out of trim for it not to fly ok. I'm not very proud of this,
but I once forgot to look under the seat for ballast and took off in a
Janus with around 145 - 150 kg in the front seat, between me and the
ballast I didn't notice, and with a reasonably large guy in the back
seat as well. I did notice on liftoff that the stick needed to be
maybe half an inch further back than normal, but it flew just fine
with *no problems at all in tight thermalling or in the flare on
landing, and it could still be stalled at right around the normal
speed.

More of a worry, especially with operators in the USA, seems to be
insurance. Some places are absolutely strict about doing everything by
the book. As far as I can tell they are worried about claims being
denied in the event of an accident. Or maybe being sued, I don't
know. *Here in NZ a claim could only be denied if exceeding a
particular placarded limit can be shown to have contributed to the
crash, but it may be different elsewhere. *Excess weight is of great
concern in powered aircraft as it can easily contribute to failure to
take off in the available space, or failure to get an adequate rate of
climb, but that is far less of an issue in gliders where we regularly
throw 200 kg of ballast in the wings and we're probably only talking
at most 10 or 20 kg extra in a pilot. *Maybe it's a different attitude
here but, for example, it is absolutely standard for agricultural
operators to take off at 30% over the manufacturer's MTOW and the
aviation authorities and insurers are happy with it as long as the
excess can be jettisoned in a few seconds.

Many BGA gliders get a weight concession for non-aerobatic flights,
but that's strictly a BGA matter AFAIK. Not sure if it will apply
after EASA gets done.

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.
Continued flight over Max GW can increase the fatigue on an aircraft over
time and increase failures to controls, hinges or wing structures.
Knowingly flying out of CG range, and you are a test pilot.

You mention the Janus with extra weight, our Janus C has a lot of useful
load, max the seats at 110kg each and yes, it can still carry more to reach
Max allowable GW. You mention needing more aft stick to keep the nose up.
Yes, the aircraft will still stall about the same speed, but recovery can be
delayed because more tail force is needed to raise the nose after stalling,
that means more airspeed for recovery to get the elevator to be effective.

You mention loading up "200kg" of water in the wings. Most single seat
gliders are made to carry ballast "up to max GW", to knowingly fly over the
max allowable GW with extra water ballast. Again, you are a test pilot. Not
all gliders can be "filled" as in filling the the water bags to the max
quantity without going over max GW. Each glider is different and should be
checked.



"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message
...
On Mar 18, 2:00 am, toggles mcfarley
wrote:
Hi,
after a hiatus of nearly 20 years I'd like to start soaring again
only this time I'm carrying a few extra pounds. Having decided on this
last year I started working on the weight in Jan and am down to 230lb
in boxers though I am continuing work on it.

It's really not a big deal. Yeah, most gliders have the seats
placarded as 110 kg (242.5 lb), but it's not as hard a limit as some
people like to make out. All gliders are built to take at least 5g of
acceleration at the placarded maximum weights, so they have huge
amounts of reserve strength in normal flying never going above 2 - 3
Gs.

There are a number of things that impose weight limits, but the main
one for the standard 110 kg per-seat limit is that the seat belt
straps and mounting points are rated for a 40g load with a 110 kg
pilot in the event of a crash. If you're a bit over, like me, then try
to keep any crashes down to 35g.

Weight of the non-lifting parts is an important limit. You can
compensate for that one with a light instructor, in which case feel
free to throw the beast around as much as you like. Otherwise go easy
on the aerobatics and fly a bit slower in rough air than the book
says.

The other technical thing to worry about is CofG. Most gliders are
very tolerant of a too-forward C of G. It's pretty common to not be
able to completely trim out the elevator force in a thermalling turn,
even for pilots within the placarded limits, but you'd have to be
grossly out of trim for it not to fly ok. I'm not very proud of this,
but I once forgot to look under the seat for ballast and took off in a
Janus with around 145 - 150 kg in the front seat, between me and the
ballast I didn't notice, and with a reasonably large guy in the back
seat as well. I did notice on liftoff that the stick needed to be
maybe half an inch further back than normal, but it flew just fine
with no problems at all in tight thermalling or in the flare on
landing, and it could still be stalled at right around the normal
speed.

More of a worry, especially with operators in the USA, seems to be
insurance. Some places are absolutely strict about doing everything by
the book. As far as I can tell they are worried about claims being
denied in the event of an accident. Or maybe being sued, I don't
know. Here in NZ a claim could only be denied if exceeding a
particular placarded limit can be shown to have contributed to the
crash, but it may be different elsewhere. Excess weight is of great
concern in powered aircraft as it can easily contribute to failure to
take off in the available space, or failure to get an adequate rate of
climb, but that is far less of an issue in gliders where we regularly
throw 200 kg of ballast in the wings and we're probably only talking
at most 10 or 20 kg extra in a pilot. Maybe it's a different attitude
here but, for example, it is absolutely standard for agricultural
operators to take off at 30% over the manufacturer's MTOW and the
aviation authorities and insurers are happy with it as long as the
excess can be jettisoned in a few seconds.

On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.


Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

On Mar 18, 2:23*pm, Guy Byars wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

Wow, Guy. I'd guess the answer thus far is "no".

On Mar 18, 2:23*pm, Guy Byars wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.

Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

The insurance issue isn't getting a settlement for the first accident
related to an over gross flight - you will get paid. However, a
problem may arise at renewal time.

There is really no excuse for operating outside the CG envelope. The
JAR 110 Kg seat limit is a little restrictive for us chubby Americans
but, hey, it's an incentive to cut back on the bacon burgers and
fries.

The idea that the gross weight limit isn't a hard rule is just wrong.
Aircraft manufacturers gain nothing by understating load capacity.
The certificated max weight is as high as can be safely allowed.

It may only be my impression but it seems to me that gliders that are
habitually operated over gross suffer undue wear and damage to the
landing gear, seats and cockpit area. I've noticed that some POH's
call for tire pressure above the max pressure on the tire sidewall.
I wouldn't think operating those gliders over gross is a good idea.

On Mar 20, 2:15*pm, bildan wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:23*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.

Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

The insurance issue isn't getting a settlement for the first accident
related to an over gross flight - you will get paid. *However, a
problem may arise at renewal time.

There is really no excuse for operating outside the CG envelope. *The
JAR 110 Kg seat limit is a little restrictive for us chubby Americans
but, hey, it's an incentive to cut back on the bacon burgers and
fries.

The idea that the gross weight limit isn't a hard rule is just wrong.
Aircraft manufacturers gain nothing by understating load capacity.
The certificated max weight is as high as can be safely allowed.

It may only be my impression but it seems to me that gliders that are
habitually operated over gross suffer undue wear and damage to the
landing gear, seats and cockpit area. *I've noticed that some POH's
call for tire pressure above the max pressure on the tire sidewall.
I wouldn't think operating those gliders over gross is a good idea.

You could always suggest that Mr McFarley cuts down on the Burgers,
French fries and beer, and does a bit of exercise. Or is that not
'American'?

Derek C

On Mar 20, 7:41*am, delboy wrote:
On Mar 20, 2:15*pm, bildan wrote:





On Mar 18, 2:23*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.

Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

The insurance issue isn't getting a settlement for the first accident
related to an over gross flight - you will get paid. *However, a
problem may arise at renewal time.

There is really no excuse for operating outside the CG envelope. *The
JAR 110 Kg seat limit is a little restrictive for us chubby Americans
but, hey, it's an incentive to cut back on the bacon burgers and
fries.

The idea that the gross weight limit isn't a hard rule is just wrong.
Aircraft manufacturers gain nothing by understating load capacity.
The certificated max weight is as high as can be safely allowed.

It may only be my impression but it seems to me that gliders that are
habitually operated over gross suffer undue wear and damage to the
landing gear, seats and cockpit area. *I've noticed that some POH's
call for tire pressure above the max pressure on the tire sidewall.
I wouldn't think operating those gliders over gross is a good idea.

You could always suggest that Mr McFarley cuts down on the Burgers,
French fries and beer, and does a bit of exercise. Or is that not
'American'?

Derek C

careful................remember we have lot's of cruise
missiles.........

On Mar 20, 4:01*pm, Brad wrote:
On Mar 20, 7:41*am, delboy wrote:





On Mar 20, 2:15*pm, bildan wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:23*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

On Mar 18, 12:43*am, "BT" wrote:

Knowing flying over the MTOW or out of the CG range can cause an insurance
company to deny a claim.

Can anyone anywhere cite a single example of an insurance company
denying a claim due to flying outside MTOW or CG ranges?

The insurance issue isn't getting a settlement for the first accident
related to an over gross flight - you will get paid. *However, a
problem may arise at renewal time.

There is really no excuse for operating outside the CG envelope. *The
JAR 110 Kg seat limit is a little restrictive for us chubby Americans
but, hey, it's an incentive to cut back on the bacon burgers and
fries.

The idea that the gross weight limit isn't a hard rule is just wrong.
Aircraft manufacturers gain nothing by understating load capacity.
The certificated max weight is as high as can be safely allowed.

It may only be my impression but it seems to me that gliders that are
habitually operated over gross suffer undue wear and damage to the
landing gear, seats and cockpit area. *I've noticed that some POH's
call for tire pressure above the max pressure on the tire sidewall.
I wouldn't think operating those gliders over gross is a good idea.

You could always suggest that Mr McFarley cuts down on the Burgers,
French fries and beer, and does a bit of exercise. Or is that not
'American'?

Derek C

careful................remember we have lot's of cruise
missiles.........- Hide quoted text -


You also have a lot of very *big* people, so I guess you are right! We
see some of them in the UK during the tourist season.

A quick plug for our tourist industry (about all we have left) if you
don't mind:

Thanks to our useless 'socialist' government the pound is now worth
b*gg*r all, so you will get a good exchange rate if you come over this
year. We even have gliding, and a lot of sites that do winch launching
if you want to give it try, or wish to learn properly. We will make
you very welcome, although we would appreciate it if you weigh less
than 232 lbs (105 kg) to allow for wearing a 10 lb parachute. We speak
a fairly quaint old fashioned form of American called English by the
way, so no need to learn another language.

Derek C

On Mar 21, 3:15*am, bildan wrote:
The idea that the gross weight limit isn't a hard rule is just wrong.
Aircraft manufacturers gain nothing by understating load capacity.
The certificated max weight is as high as can be safely allowed.

That is clearly not true. A lot of aircraft design is trading off one
desirable feature against another.

In the case of powered aircraft the MTOW is the weight used to
establish the published takeoff run, the distance to clear a 50'
obstacle, the rate of climb, the service ceiling, and probably others.
If you're operating out of short strips then you want to know how much
load you can carry. If you're operating a cessna off a 4 km runway at
sea level with no obstructions then it will be perfectly safe to
operate somewhat over MTOW, especially if the extra weight is carried
in the wings.

In the case of, for example, our club's DG1000 basic trainers, the
aircraft is permitted to do unlimited aerobatics with a +7/-5 G rating
at MTOW. If that's not a requirement on a particular flight and you're
happy with the +5/-3 G like most other gliders then you could operate
at some higher weight.


There is really no excuse for operating outside the CG envelope. *The
JAR 110 Kg seat limit is a little restrictive for us chubby Americans
but, hey, it's an incentive to cut back on the bacon burgers and
fries.

Seat weight is one thing, CofG is quite another. With the tail ballast
box full, those same DG1000's are within the published CofG limit even
with two pilots well over 110 kg each.