"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the

This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.

If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.

The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.

What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .

Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.

That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe

Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).

I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.

Chris Manteuffel

And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere
thought to design and production in less then 90 days. What the Hell do
you think German Engineers could do with Hitler up their ass.? Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer? If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast. The limeys should thank their
lucky stars that Germany set its sights on Russia instead. England had
it very bad as being only a secondary target of Germany. England should
also be damned glad Japan brought America from a covert military
supplier to open warfare.

On Mar 18, 10:19*pm, Alexander wrote:

Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer?

I know that Speer managed to produce 0 useful Type XXI submarines, and
when Germany needed to defend their own airspace, he managed the neat
trick of producing a ton of fighters that were obsolete (Me109's
certainly, and to a lesser extent FW190), and a small number of
fighters that were beyond the bleeding edge- the engines of the Me262
had such terrible reliability that the fighters weren't at all useful
for Germany. What makes you think that they could magically fix these
problems?

If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast.

Not for at least a decade to build up a navy and air force capable of
defeating the RN and starving Britain into submission. Without US or
USSR support they would not have much hope of forcing Germany to
change their government and remove Hitler, but by the same token, he
would have no chance of winning either. It would be something similar
to two centuries ago, during the struggle with Napoleon, when Britain
needed continental allies to achieve victory, but could not be forced
out by their enemy.

Chris Manteuffel

Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:19 pm, Alexander wrote:

Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer?

I know that Speer managed to produce 0 useful Type XXI submarines, and
when Germany needed to defend their own airspace, he managed the neat
trick of producing a ton of fighters that were obsolete (Me109's
certainly, and to a lesser extent FW190), and a small number of
fighters that were beyond the bleeding edge- the engines of the Me262
had such terrible reliability that the fighters weren't at all useful
for Germany. What makes you think that they could magically fix these
problems?

Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.


If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast.

Not for at least a decade to build up a navy and air force capable of
defeating the RN and starving Britain into submission.

England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Without US or
USSR support they would not have much hope of forcing Germany to
change their government and remove Hitler, but by the same token, he
would have no chance of winning either.

Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

It would be something similar
to two centuries ago, during the struggle with Napoleon, when Britain
needed continental allies to achieve victory, but could not be forced
out by their enemy.

Chris Manteuffel

The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.

On Mar 19, 6:34*am, Alexander wrote:

Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.

England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

Chris Manteuffel

Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 6:34 am, Alexander wrote:

Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.

England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

Chris Manteuffel

Don't even begin to think I will waste time on link bull****.

Alexander wrote:
Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 6:34 am, Alexander wrote:

Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.

England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

Chris Manteuffel

Don't even begin to think I will waste time on link bull****.

I'll save you the trouble, little man. "Word salad" means you
connected words in such a way as to produce nothing of value or sense.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:42:25 -0500, Alexander
wrote:

Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 6:34 am, Alexander wrote:

Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.

England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

Chris Manteuffel

Don't even begin to think I will waste time on link bull****.

Why should you when you have such a rich domestic source?


Peter Skelton

In article ,
Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 6:34*am, Alexander dribbled on the
keyboard:

naught but noise


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/usenet/...aq07-fwit.html

seems more apposite in this case.

As, indeed, is the linked FAQ:

ttp://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/usenet/guide/fwit-faq.html

--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales
"The internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact
with things that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with
dental floss.." (Charlie Stross)

Alexander wrote:


And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere
thought to design and production in less then 90 days.

Contract NA-73X was laid in March 1940.

First combat use, by the RAF, (the aircraft was designed for the
British not the USAAF) was in May 1942.

They used an extant engine design...

I wonder where they got that from...


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:34:03 +0000, William Black wrote:

Alexander wrote:


And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere
thought to design and production in less then 90 days.

Contract NA-73X was laid in March 1940.

First combat use, by the RAF, (the aircraft was designed for the
British not the USAAF) was in May 1942.

They used an extant engine design...

I wonder where they got that from...

Uhm, no, they didn't.
What North American did have were the wind tunnel data and
design calculations for the Curtiss XP-46, Curtiss's idea for a P-40 successor,
which didn't work so very well.

What North American did do was start the rough designs of the NA-73 before
the Brits came around looking for a second source of P-40s.
--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system