"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:48 pm, Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:59 pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.
If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.
The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.
What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .
Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.
That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe
Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).
I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.
Chris Manteuffel
As a hobby I build houses, cottages and track vehicles, here's pix,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dynamics/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3515661...7616995388478/
that's for fun.
Toy tanks and play houses are a far cry from combat vehicles.



An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.
Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken
Perhaps if there were production lines, no sealant or paint cure
times and the like there could have been "1000 barges a day made." Where
does the wood come from? Are you thinking they should have used fresh
cut wood? If they are motorized where do the engines come from? Combat
vehicles and aircraft had priority. If they aren't motorized how do they
get across the Channel? For that matter, how long would they take to get
across?

The Higgins boats were far superior to anything the Nazis toyed with
for beach landings. They couldn't safely cross the Channel fast enough
to avoid detection and destruction.

Let's assume in Tucker World® the Nazis could have amassed 30,000
barges and got them across the Channel. How many could beach at a time?
Other than offloading men and man portable supplies and weaponry what
can you get on the beach in rapid succession? The Nazis had no plans for
Mulberry equivalents so any vehicles would have to be off loaded onto
that beach. Let's see, you have men on the beach securing a beach head,
a beach clogged with barges, barges off shore waiting en masse, very
limited Nazi naval gun support (if any), no AAA on the beach etc. and,
assuming the landing is at dawn, a bunch of collisions between the
barges. I suppose an unopposed landing might succeed, but there's the
rub, the locals would be able to out man the Nazis, the Nazis wouldn't
be able to stop the RAF from banging them up a bit and the RN wasn't far
away.

I'm sure you can organize the low skilled labour. I base that on the
workmanship of your playhouses.

How long does it take you to remove an engine?


Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes and they sailed convoy
across the Atlantic to England, Russia and later France. Cheap and very
fast to build. Could build them faster then they could be sunk. Although
reading their history..They were a bitch to sink.

It takes me about 10 minutes, 5 if I don't take a break.
I can do a 35 hp outboard myself, with no problem in about
3 minutes, including gas tank, done that as a kid.
Pulling up a 50hp off a boat is pretty much my limit.
So you assign a strong man to that task and send it back.

Danelda, the Nazi's could mass produce V2 rockets, do ya
really think mass producing 50 hp outboards motors would
be a problem?

So I mass produce barges, say 10'x40' from a forest (duh),
and put a few 50's on it and my stuff gets to england in 5 hrs,
using a compass on a foggy night, there's a lot of coast to
make 'numerous' beach heads.
Any RN is dead when He's, Dorniers, Me-110's equiped with Nazi
torpedoes with Me-109 cover, I'll toss in some Stuka's.
Nazi's torpedoes worked, and what's RN using, searchlights to
locate the barges at night, they is DOA. Even a ding-bat pilot
could toast a RN ship with a torpedo as soon as it lights up.

If I was in command of Sea Lion, england would be conquered
without doubt, fortunately your boyfriend Hitler wasn't interested,
and ****ed around with england and under that cover, planned
and assembled for attacking Russia.

Actually Dan I think you're right about that in a previous post.
That's new to me, so I appreciate that insight, Hitler doing
smoke and mirrors in Battle of Britain as Stalin wrings his ugly
hands in delight as Europeans fight, especially given the treaty
he had Hitler sign, no attacking for 10 years, hard to trust people,
as he moves to Barbarossa, almost worked.
Ken

Alexander wrote:
Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes

Welded steel and fuel oil fired triple expansion engines.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Mar 20, 1:37*pm, William Black wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes

Welded steel and fuel oil fired triple expansion engines.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Note the ferro-concrete ships were smaller,4600 tons, than the
Liberties, 14,000 tons, and took longer, three to six weeks, compared
to the Kaiser-built ship every ten days. And, the ferro-concretes
generally were only made late, 1944-5.