Pilot error, fog

Todd wrote:
WARSAW (AFP) - A plane with Polish President Lech Kaczynski on board
crashed Saturday on landing at Smolensk in western Russia, foreign
ministry spokesman Piotr Pszkowski said.

According to reports the pilot disregarded controller suggestions to land
at another airfield.

On 10 Apr, 19:19, Jim Logajan wrote:
Todd wrote:
WARSAW (AFP) - A plane with Polish President Lech Kaczynski on board
crashed Saturday on landing at Smolensk in western Russia, foreign
ministry spokesman Piotr Pszkowski said.

According to reports the pilot disregarded controller suggestions to land
at another airfield.

I understand it was a military airfield and that the only
approach aid was radar. I forget the term - Precision
Approach Radar (PAR)? This is normal in some militaries
and works very well. The operator has two screens one for
azimuth and the other for slope. He "talks" the pilot
along the glideslope to minimums. I have no idea what
typical minimums might be.

The technology very likely pre-dates ILS and one
advantage still relevant today is that to set it up on
a new airfield all you need is a truck containing the radar
and a seat for the operator. Could probably set it up an a
very few hours. ILS needs HUGE antennae and is probably
quite an effort to calibrate too. RAF for sure used in in the
1970's. I was in the operators station of one but did not see
a landing.

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On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT), bod43
wrote:



I understand it was a military airfield and that the only
approach aid was radar. I forget the term - Precision
Approach Radar (PAR)? This is normal in some militaries
and works very well. The operator has two screens one for
azimuth and the other for slope. He "talks" the pilot
along the glideslope to minimums. I have no idea what
typical minimums might be.

You are probably referring to GCA

"Ed" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT), bod43
wrote:



I understand it was a military airfield and that the only
approach aid was radar. I forget the term - Precision
Approach Radar (PAR)? This is normal in some militaries
and works very well. The operator has two screens one for
azimuth and the other for slope. He "talks" the pilot
along the glideslope to minimums. I have no idea what
typical minimums might be.

You are probably referring to GCA

IIRC, the military called the procedure GCA for Ground Controlled Approach
and the major hub (airline) airports that could provide a similar service
called it PAR for Precision Approach Radar.

I have no idea whether the civil version still exists.

Peter

Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
IIRC, the military called the procedure GCA for Ground Controlled Approach
and the major hub (airline) airports that could provide a similar service
called it PAR for Precision Approach Radar.

I have no idea whether the civil version still exists.

I've done a number of PAR approaches for my IMC rating training this week
(albeit at a Military field in the UK). IIRC correctly, the system minima is
something like 200 feet.

Andy

On Apr 13, 5:36*pm, Andy Hawkins wrote:
Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * *Peter wrote:

IIRC, the military called the procedure GCA for Ground Controlled Approach
and the major hub (airline) airports that could provide a similar service
called it PAR for Precision Approach Radar.

I have no idea whether the civil version still exists.

I've done a number of PAR approaches for my IMC rating training this week
(albeit at a Military field in the UK). IIRC correctly, the system minima is
something like 200 feet.

Andy

GCA approaches are simply not common where I fly, but since there's
both horizontal and vertical info available to the pilot I would not
be surprised if minimums weren't about the same as ILS. The few I've
flown were at the request of approach for controller practice: as I
remember (it was some time ago) somewhere maybe starting at 1000 feet
agl I was told not to respond via the radio and if I did not hear the
controller for something like 5 seconds I should climb on whatever
heading I was on. This was in VMC. This was to a runway that also had
an ILS, and as I remember the controller pretty much had me a dot or
two high on the glide slope most of the way down.

News reports state the airplane crashed on its fifth(!) approach --
that is, they flew four missed approaches.

In article fd6cada7-6351-41a9-8026-5fbcc10c4eb5
@x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Apr 13, 5:36*pm, Andy Hawkins wrote:
Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * *Peter wrote:

IIRC, the military called the procedure GCA for Ground Controlled Approach
and the major hub (airline) airports that could provide a similar service
called it PAR for Precision Approach Radar.

I have no idea whether the civil version still exists.

I've done a number of PAR approaches for my IMC rating training this week
(albeit at a Military field in the UK). IIRC correctly, the system minima is
something like 200 feet.

Andy

GCA approaches are simply not common where I fly, but since there's
both horizontal and vertical info available to the pilot I would not
be surprised if minimums weren't about the same as ILS. The few I've
flown were at the request of approach for controller practice: as I
remember (it was some time ago) somewhere maybe starting at 1000 feet
agl I was told not to respond via the radio and if I did not hear the
controller for something like 5 seconds I should climb on whatever
heading I was on. This was in VMC. This was to a runway that also had
an ILS, and as I remember the controller pretty much had me a dot or
two high on the glide slope most of the way down.

News reports state the airplane crashed on its fifth(!) approach --
that is, they flew four missed approaches.

News reports are often wrong - as in this case too? ...

* wrong about the distance from the field
* wrong about the number of approaches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Po...e_Tu-154_crash


--
Duncan.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

--
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Live To Spend It ! http://preview.xrl.in/4z9q

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

On Apr 13, 5:36*pm, Andy Hawkins wrote:
Hi,

Bye.

I understand it was a military airfield and that the only
approach aid was radar. I forget the term - Precision
Approach Radar (PAR)? This is normal in some militaries
and works very well. The operator has two screens one for
azimuth and the other for slope. He "talks" the pilot
along the glideslope to minimums. I have no idea what
typical minimums might be.

Gosh, I didn't think my IFR training was THAT long ago....I remember
studying and (I think) actually doing at least one PAR (Precision
Approach Radar) during my IFR instruction. This was early 90s and I
remember it well because somebody (instructor, perhaps) asked me at
one point "What are the only two precision approaches available for
IFR?" I could only answer "ILS," but then I was introduced to PAR. I
am sure we did one, too, which I think caught the tower off guard
because nobody ever did a PAR. There's talk here about a trailer or
something at the runway's end but I believe tower provided the
guidance for that one PAR I did.

Ricky