Diamond goal flight rejected due to typo

On Jun 10, 10:02Â*am, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
Użytkownik Scott Alexander napisał:

I want this time to count. Â*Glad you got it approved Evan....anyone
else have any suggestions?

SC3 (valid 2009 AL0 edition), para 4.2.1.c (declaration content):
- glider type, and its registration _or_ serial number _or_ unique
NAC-assigned contest number.

Are SSA contest IDs unique?

Also, SC3 Annex C, para 1.2:
"OOs and National Claim Officers are encouraged to take the position
that, ensuring the rules are met, their goal is to make awards, not turn
them down for minor errors or oversights that do not affect the proof of
a soaring performance."

An OO's special statement about the glider flown should be enough to
solve the case IMHO.

--
WojtuÅ›.net

SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.

SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. I
really do appreciate them. It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. Hopefully this will
get overturned. Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

On Jun 10, 4:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:
SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I feel your pain Scott. I lost a 500K flight last year, due to a
faulty way point file in my logger, that did not show up on the PDA
while flying.

On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:
SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.


TA

I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA-

Frank! That is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

The inherent problem is a self-serving “system” that has evolved into
the absurd over the years. The focus is on procedures rather than
results. Everyone reading this knows of someone who has completed a
badge flight and their paperwork has been rejected. You’ve often heard
something to the effect that the flight was the easy part but getting
the paperwork right takes a rocket scientist. SSA currently has a
group working on some of these issues, but as you’ve often heard the
Chairman say, the Staff relies on members to get things done. I would
suggest a small uprising of SSA members focused on reforming badge
flight documentation would an appropriate action. A grass-roots
effort to put the fun back in badge flying… now there’s an idea! A
couple of thousand e-mail messages to SSA HQ, or your Regional
Director, would be a good start for a grass-roots movement to reform
an out-dated bureaucratic badge system.

So, what would rational, functional, and user-friendly badge flight
documentation look like?

Bob

On 6/11/2010 1:47 PM, RL wrote:
The inherent problem is a self-serving “system” that has evolved into
the absurd over the years. The focus is on procedures rather than
results.

I suspect (as in, am just about 99.98276% certain!) this 'focus on
procedures' is an easy trap for folks 'in the IGC position' to fall
into. That noted, put me in the category of agreeing a 'real O.O.'
shouldn't let stuff like [Scott A.'s oversight] happen on his watch;
plenty of blame to go around.

For the record, while wearing my O.O. hat, I never had a badge
application fail/be-returned for any reason...when the requirements
changed with new technology and it was too much personal hassle to
remain 'up' on them, I simply stowed my O.O. hat.)
- - - - - -

Snip...
SSA currently has a
group working on some of these issues, but as you’ve often heard the
Chairman say, the Staff relies on members to get things done. I would
suggest a small uprising of SSA members focused on reforming badge
flight documentation would an appropriate action. A grass-roots
effort to put the fun back in badge flying… now there’s an idea! A
couple of thousand e-mail messages to SSA HQ, or your Regional
Director, would be a good start for a grass-roots movement to reform
an out-dated bureaucratic badge system.
Management 101 - assign responsibility for the project to whomever
thought it up - at least that person cared enough to think and whine
about things!

Whiners take note...if you *really* care, be prepared to follow-up and
take action.
- - - - - -

So, what would rational, functional, and user-friendly badge flight
documentation look like?

GREAT QUESTION!!! - don't be shy with responses! And don't imagine that
because this is a 'U.S. problem' that all the good ideas can come only
from the U.S.

Quite possibly here's a chance for RAS to genuinely benefit a bit of the
sport we all love...by becoming a central repository for ideas.

My 'forest' list includes:
- define the forest before diving into the trees (i.e. What're our
goal[s]? For whom? Who gets hurt if anyone cheats? KISS.)
- I don't care too much about the trees until we're in general agreement
about the nature of the forest...

Bob W.

On Jun 10, 6:28*pm, Frank wrote:
On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:



SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. *I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". *Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. *I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA

Frank,

I don't think it is the SSA. It is the IGC. The SSA is following the
IGC rules as clarified in painful detail to them by the IGC. If the
SSA decides to just ignore the IGC rules then I could see the final
outcome would be to lose FAI record and badge setting authority. I
agree it's worth identifying the jackass responsible for this, but I
don't think it is the SSA.

Darryl

On Jun 10, 8:54*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 10, 6:28*pm, Frank wrote:





On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:

SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. *I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". *Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. *I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA

Frank,

I don't think it is the SSA. It is the IGC. The SSA is following the
IGC rules as clarified in painful detail to them by the IGC. If the
SSA decides to just ignore the IGC rules then I could see the final
outcome would be to lose FAI record and badge setting authority. I
agree it's worth identifying the jackass responsible for this, but I
don't think it is the SSA.

Darryl

Darryl,

You have my sympathy but you're in good company - hundreds if not
thousands of pilots have had badge claims denied over the years
because of a paperwork glitch. It pays to read the rules - and have
a good OO looking over your shoulder as you fill out the forms.

It happened to me. I flew an 300 km out and return but got credit for
Gold Distance and not Diamond Goal because the start and finish were 1
km apart - not the same point - my bad. I didn't complain, I just
cleared the memory of the Volkslogger and flew another 300 km O&R for
Diamond Goal. Both flights were a lot of fun so I didn't have much to
complain about.

Bill D

On Jun 11, 12:11*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jun 10, 8:54*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jun 10, 6:28*pm, Frank wrote:

On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:

SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. *I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". *Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. *I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA

Frank,

I don't think it is the SSA. It is the IGC. The SSA is following the
IGC rules as clarified in painful detail to them by the IGC. If the
SSA decides to just ignore the IGC rules then I could see the final
outcome would be to lose FAI record and badge setting authority. I
agree it's worth identifying the jackass responsible for this, but I
don't think it is the SSA.

Darryl

Darryl,

You have my sympathy but you're in good company - hundreds if not
thousands of pilots have had badge claims denied over the years
because of a paperwork glitch. * It pays to read the rules - and have
a good OO looking over your shoulder as you fill out the forms.

It happened to me. *I flew an 300 km out and return but got credit for
Gold Distance and not Diamond Goal because the start and finish were 1
km apart - not the same point - my bad. *I didn't complain, I just
cleared the memory of the Volkslogger and flew another 300 km O&R for
Diamond Goal. *Both flights were a lot of fun so I didn't have much to
complain about.

Bill D

I don't need your sympathy. I've never had a badge claim rejected, but
I've come close more than once. And As I've suggested here Scott's
most effective resolution of this problem is to go do the flight again
properly.

As somebody's who has worked to locally promote badge flights, given
local seminars/talks on badges, helped explain the common traps and
helped mentor a few people through badges, worked with local clubs/
FBOs etc to make sure they are clear on the exact GLIDERID/Contest ID
issue discussed here, etc... I'll restate my points on this...

1. The sporting code _is_ clear. You do have to read it a few times.

2. The SSA has communicated this issue fairly well.

3. While Scott has my sympathy, I really don't care about the impact
on an individual badge claim.

4. I do care on the net overall affect of this particularly pedantic
rule and the impact on lots of Scott's and others trying for their
badges. Especially combined with -
a) A long running tradition in the USA of entering the SSA Contest
number as the GLIDERID
b) Confusing software UI and documentation from IGC flight recorder
vendors that state "contest ID" when it means "GLIDER ID".
c) The complete pedantic nature of this actual rule interpretation,
and its non-impact of this on anything important.

Here is the minimal solution I would like for the USA: have the OO
just be able to document (post-badge application on inquiry from the
SSA if needed) that in cases where a valid SSA contest ID was entered
for that pilot instead of the N-number what the actual glider N-number
was. Of course this is perfectly easily handled today by doing a paper
declaration after the electronic one. As has been suggested on r.a.s
many times. So while I'm complaining about the IGC interpretation of
this rule I'm equally complaining about pilots who cannot get basic
stuff like this right _and_ also choose to not do a paper declaration.
The suggestion for doing a paper declaration has been around for ages,
it covers a lot of possible sins, so it's not a new thing. The OO in
this case really let the pilot down.


Darryl