Co-pilot gets sick, stewardess helps land airplane

On Jun 23, 4:42*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
JohnT writes:
What physical sensations are you referring to?

All of them. Some people are very into strong sensations.

You don't fly and you know nothing about flying.

I have flown in airplanes many times. The sensations felt by pilots are
identical to those felt by passengers.

This is minor point, but anyone who thinks all sensations are
identical in an airplane, the differences being most evident in larger
ones, clearly does not understand the physics. An airplane is not a
point mass.

"Assume a spherical cow" indeed.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:26:18 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Hatunen writes:

Nor can it realistically
simulate the feeling of aiming the plane at a real runway and
trying your best to grease the wheels on, but instead coming in a
bit high and trying to force the plne down to the runway without
bouncing too much.

Actually it does that rather well.

Your computer chair bounces?
As us8ual you deleted an important part of my post....

"In some fairness, it should be said that some computer
simulators perform pretty well, but it also has to be said that a
simulation on a PC can never be very realistic. It is far
different sitting in a real cockpit with a real yoke and real
pedals operating real ailerons, elevators and rudders."

.... which makes it clear I am talking about PC simulators.

A PC can never simulate that feeling in the
pit of your stomache when teh plane hits a downdraft and loses
2000 feet just like that.

Like many private pilots, you think of flight in terms of physical sensations.
This is only one of many possible interpretations, however.

You've never flown a plane. I have. The physical sensations can
be important when they occur, as they can distract from clear
thinking. A stall simulated on a PC can not ever accurately
convey the, um, thrill, of a full stall (especially your first
full stall as a student pilot) as you keep pulling back on the
yoke/joystick pointing the noise higher and higher as the stall
warning screams and then, WHAM!, the nose of the plane is pointed
downward, seemingly straight down at the ground, gaining speed
rapidly. The first time I did tht for my isntructor it scared the
crap out of me. (The plane itself is important here; our old
Piper J-3 would snap a stall break like you wouldn't believe,
real Six Flags sort of thing, while the Cessnas are a bit more
forgiving, and some light planes are designed to not break in a
stall at all but to simply lsoe altitude.)


A PC can not give you the feel of a plane as it is slowed to
stall speen with the stall warning blaring and the plane
shuddering a little. Andalthough they no longer teach it, a PC
cannot simulate the quiet but scary feeling f being in a spin and
the slight panic as you try to bring it out of that spin.

Since they no longer teach it, doesn't that mean that there are no longer any
Real Pilots? How can you know anything about a spin without spinning in a
real aircraft?

And the PC can not simulate the visual context of a real plane
where the instruments are spread out; you'd have to keep your
nose pretty close to the monitor to simulate this.

Actually, the PC can do this, with the right add-ons.

As to Mixie's apparent idea that somehow his PC is a good
emulation of a big-time simulator, where the cockpit layout is
very close to the appearance of the craft's real cockpit and
where the hydraulics on the simulator can create most of the
bumps and jerks of real flight, that is downright ludicrous.

I guess you haven't been flying or simming much recently. The cockpit layout
of the sim is realistic enough that you may not recognize it as a sim at first
glance. It's not difficult to display photo-realistic visuals, after all.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen writes:

Your computer chair bounces?

No, but the view out the window and the instruments tell me all that I need to
know. Vision is the most important sense in flying by far.

... which makes it clear I am talking about PC simulators.

PC simulators do a good job, too.

You've never flown a plane. I have.

Thank you for proving my point.

The physical sensations can be important when they occur, as they can
distract from clear thinking.

Yes, but much of their effect is a function of personality as well.

A stall simulated on a PC can not ever accurately
convey the, um, thrill, of a full stall (especially your first
full stall as a student pilot) as you keep pulling back on the
yoke/joystick pointing the noise higher and higher as the stall
warning screams and then, WHAM!, the nose of the plane is pointed
downward, seemingly straight down at the ground, gaining speed
rapidly.

Yes, I know. But I'm not a thrillseeker, and I don't need thrills to learn how
to fly.

The first time I did tht for my isntructor it scared the
crap out of me.

Did you know what to expect?

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Hatunen writes:

Your computer chair bounces?

No, but the view out the window and the instruments tell me all that I need to
know. Vision is the most important sense in flying by far.

Delusional babble.

It is important to learn how to handle ALL the sensory inputs, especially
the ones that tend to cause you to redo your breakfast.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

It is important to learn how to handle ALL the sensory inputs, especially
the ones that tend to cause you to redo your breakfast.

It's important to learn to ignore them. Some people are better at this than
others.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

It is important to learn how to handle ALL the sensory inputs, especially
the ones that tend to cause you to redo your breakfast.

It's important to learn to ignore them.

No ****?

I just said that several times now.

Some people are better at this than
others.

Yep, some people can do it rather quickly and others like you never can.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Hatunen writes:

Nor can it realistically
simulate the feeling of aiming the plane at a real runway and
trying your best to grease the wheels on, but instead coming in a
bit high and trying to force the plne down to the runway without
bouncing too much.

Actually it does that rather well.

Delusional.

The view looks like a flat screen and there is no peripherial view.

A PC can never simulate that feeling in the
pit of your stomache when teh plane hits a downdraft and loses
2000 feet just like that.

Like many private pilots, you think of flight in terms of physical sensations.

The physical sensations of a downdraft are real in real airplanes and you
have to learn to deal with them to fly real airplanes.

A PC can not give you the feel of a plane as it is slowed to
stall speen with the stall warning blaring and the plane
shuddering a little. Andalthough they no longer teach it, a PC
cannot simulate the quiet but scary feeling f being in a spin and
the slight panic as you try to bring it out of that spin.

Since they no longer teach it, doesn't that mean that there are no longer any
Real Pilots? How can you know anything about a spin without spinning in a
real aircraft?

Wrong.

Yes spins are still taught, they are just not a requirement for private.

And the PC can not simulate the visual context of a real plane
where the instruments are spread out; you'd have to keep your
nose pretty close to the monitor to simulate this.

Actually, the PC can do this, with the right add-ons.

Sure if you have a 360 degree wrap around display.

Do you?

As to Mixie's apparent idea that somehow his PC is a good
emulation of a big-time simulator, where the cockpit layout is
very close to the appearance of the craft's real cockpit and
where the hydraulics on the simulator can create most of the
bumps and jerks of real flight, that is downright ludicrous.

I guess you haven't been flying or simming much recently. The cockpit layout
of the sim is realistic enough that you may not recognize it as a sim at first
glance. It's not difficult to display photo-realistic visuals, after all.

Since it is all on a small (compared to even a C150 panel) 2 dimensional flat
screen, only someone delusional could not immediately tell it is a display.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

The view looks like a flat screen and there is no peripherial view.

Look up TrackIR.

The physical sensations of a downdraft are real in real airplanes and you
have to learn to deal with them to fly real airplanes.

That's about 0.000001% of what you have to learn to deal with to fly
airplanes, and a great deal of what you have to learn (the great majority, in
fact) has nothing to do with physical sensations.

Maybe if you're puttering around in a biplane you might depend a lot on
sensations. But in a 747 you don't use them at all. Large aircraft are flown
by the numbers, for the most part.

Yes spins are still taught, they are just not a requirement for private.

So spins are not taught for a PPL, QED.

Sure if you have a 360 degree wrap around display.

No, you can also have a display that changes what it shows based on your head
movements. It works extremely well.

Do you?

I don't care enough about the virtual cockpit view to use such add-ons. I can
"turn my head" left and right with a twist of the joystick if I need to look
around. I fly in IMC a fair amount so often there's nothing to look at except
the instrument panel.

Since it is all on a small (compared to even a C150 panel) 2 dimensional flat
screen, only someone delusional could not immediately tell it is a display.

It can fool both pilots and non-pilots. Sims have come a long way since the
old days.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

The view looks like a flat screen and there is no peripherial view.

Look up TrackIR.

I have.

It is still a flat screen and there is no peripherial view.

To say otherwise is a lie or a delusion.

The physical sensations of a downdraft are real in real airplanes and you
have to learn to deal with them to fly real airplanes.

That's about 0.000001% of what you have to learn to deal with to fly
airplanes, and a great deal of what you have to learn (the great majority, in
fact) has nothing to do with physical sensations.

It is a lot more than 0.000001% of what you have to learn and you have to
learn it to fly real airplanes.

snip delusional babble about how realistic small, flat screes with no
peripheral view are


--
Jim Pennino

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On Jun 22, 6:20*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

That's about 0.000001% of what you have to learn to deal with to fly
airplanes, and a great deal of what you have to learn (the great majority, in
fact) has nothing to do with physical sensations.

WRONG. Ignore what the plane tells you before a stall and YOU would
be dead.

One of the first things I was taught was to NOT ignore what the plane
is trying to tell you. It WILL tell you when it's ready to stop
flying BEFORE it shows on your airspeed indicator something you have
no clue about since MSFS doesn't indicate this. As others already
told you, you feel it in the controls (mushy, then shudders).

Same thing for landing, ignore what the plane when it's not ready to
land and YOU would be dead. You feel it before you see it indicated
on instruments. But of course YOU HAVE NO CLUE.