Navworx ADS-B Transceiver gets FCC Authorization

On 7/23/2010 8:51 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

The NavWorx transciever deserves mention as the first new UAT
transceiver for the GA market--since the Garmin/UPS product that was
really built for the Alaska trials. And the NavWorx has a much better
packaging and price point that that, although it still needs TSO
approval. And if they get it TSO'ed it will fit a need in the GA
market especially for aircraft with older panels and non-Mode S
transponders that cannot be upgraded to 1090ES data-out, and for
NavWorx I suspect that market is a good target for them. To the extent
it shows some movement in the ADS-B market that is good, and worth
pointing out on r.a.s to glider pilots, but as a product we would
actually use it is just not a good fit. And I'm not just picking on
the NavWorx, I've also pointed out the Trig 1090ES receiver product,
also an interesting product for the GA market, but has some of the
same issues as I've pointed out above for us.

Darryl
Please explain exactly why the Navworx product is not suitable for
gliders? This unit is similar in size and design to the prototypes
that MITRE is testing in conjunction with the SSA, AOPA, and the FAA.
Is the MITRE unit also unsuitable in your opinion?
For me, that 0.8 amps seems like a lot. My current setup, with radio,
transponder, vario, gps, mrx, PDA takes 0.8 amps, so this would double
it to 1.6 amps. Fly 8 hours, that's 12.8 amp hours. Not so bad for me
since I have an 18 ah battery, but I'd need to charge it every day, and
be careful in cold weather I don't run out. How many glider pilots are
prepared for that kind of drain? Look at all the whining over just 0.4
amps for a transponder.

The other thing is the $2500, while people keep talking about $1000 for
the Mitre unit being about right. I think that extra $1500 is going to
stop a lot of pilots from considering it, or they'll say "shoot, I'll
just put in a Trig for $2000, and I don't need to double my battery
size; the airliners will see me and so will the big-bucks pilots that
put the Navworx in their ship".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On 7/24/2010 12:04 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 7/23/2010 8:51 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

The NavWorx transciever deserves mention as the first new UAT
transceiver for the GA market--since the Garmin/UPS product that was
really built for the Alaska trials. And the NavWorx has a much better
packaging and price point that that, although it still needs TSO
approval. And if they get it TSO'ed it will fit a need in the GA
market especially for aircraft with older panels and non-Mode S
transponders that cannot be upgraded to 1090ES data-out, and for
NavWorx I suspect that market is a good target for them. To the extent
it shows some movement in the ADS-B market that is good, and worth
pointing out on r.a.s to glider pilots, but as a product we would
actually use it is just not a good fit. And I'm not just picking on
the NavWorx, I've also pointed out the Trig 1090ES receiver product,
also an interesting product for the GA market, but has some of the
same issues as I've pointed out above for us.

Darryl
Please explain exactly why the Navworx product is not suitable for
gliders? This unit is similar in size and design to the prototypes
that MITRE is testing in conjunction with the SSA, AOPA, and the FAA.
Is the MITRE unit also unsuitable in your opinion?
For me, that 0.8 amps seems like a lot. My current setup, with radio,
transponder, vario, gps, mrx, PDA takes 0.8 amps, so this would double
it to 1.6 amps. Fly 8 hours, that's 12.8 amp hours. Not so bad for me
since I have an 18 ah battery, but I'd need to charge it every day, and
be careful in cold weather I don't run out. How many glider pilots are
prepared for that kind of drain? Look at all the whining over just 0.4
amps for a transponder.

The other thing is the $2500, while people keep talking about $1000 for
the Mitre unit being about right. I think that extra $1500 is going to
stop a lot of pilots from considering it, or they'll say "shoot, I'll
just put in a Trig for $2000, and I don't need to double my battery
size; the airliners will see me and so will the big-bucks pilots that
put the Navworx in their ship".


There's no question that a lower price point would help. Hopefully we
will see prices come down as there is more competition.

As far as power consumption goes, has anyone looked at using solar cells
to augment battery power?

--
Mike Schumann

On Jul 23, 10:53*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 7/24/2010 12:04 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:



On 7/23/2010 8:51 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

The NavWorx transciever deserves mention as the first new UAT
transceiver for the GA market--since the Garmin/UPS product that was
really built for the Alaska trials. And the NavWorx has a much better
packaging and price point that that, although it still needs TSO
approval. And if they get it TSO'ed it will fit a need in the GA
market especially for aircraft with older panels and non-Mode S
transponders that cannot be upgraded to 1090ES data-out, and for
NavWorx I suspect that market is a good target for them. To the extent
it shows some movement in the ADS-B market that is good, and worth
pointing out on r.a.s to glider pilots, but as a product we would
actually use it is just not a good fit. And I'm not just picking on
the NavWorx, I've also pointed out the Trig 1090ES receiver product,
also an interesting product for the GA market, but has some of the
same issues as I've pointed out above for us.

Darryl
Please explain exactly why the Navworx product is not suitable for
gliders? This unit is similar in size and design to the prototypes
that MITRE is testing in conjunction with the SSA, AOPA, and the FAA.
Is the MITRE unit also unsuitable in your opinion?
For me, that 0.8 amps seems like a lot. My current setup, with radio,
transponder, vario, gps, mrx, PDA takes 0.8 amps, so this would double
it to 1.6 amps. Fly 8 hours, that's 12.8 amp hours. Not so bad for me
since I have an 18 ah battery, but I'd need to charge it every day, and
be careful in cold weather I don't run out. How many glider pilots are
prepared for that kind of drain? Look at all the whining over just 0.4
amps for a transponder.

The other thing is the $2500, while people keep talking about $1000 for
the Mitre unit being about right. I think that extra $1500 is going to
stop a lot of pilots from considering it, or they'll say "shoot, I'll
just put in a Trig for $2000, and I don't need to double my battery
size; the airliners will see me and so will the big-bucks pilots that
put the Navworx in their ship".

There's no question that a lower price point would help. *Hopefully we
will see prices come down as there is more competition.

As far as power consumption goes, has anyone looked at using solar cells
to augment battery power?

--
Mike Schumann

For several more thousand dollars more you can install a 30 W Strobl
solar panel on your glider and given typical efficiency this will help
with some installations. (I have the largest panels Strobl make
installed one my motorglider). But you can't rely on the solar always
working. You will still need a large battery (likely at least 12Ah and
likely more for folks with long flights and other equipment). Now we
are somewhere around $5k for the UAT installation and we still don't
have a traffic display usable in a glider cockpit. (c'mon it's so
awful somebody just tell me this power spec is just plain wrong).

But don't surrender now. Your defense of this UAT box is entertaining.

Darryl

On 7/24/2010 1:46 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 23, 10:53 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 7/24/2010 12:04 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:



On 7/23/2010 8:51 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

The NavWorx transciever deserves mention as the first new UAT
transceiver for the GA market--since the Garmin/UPS product that was
really built for the Alaska trials. And the NavWorx has a much better
packaging and price point that that, although it still needs TSO
approval. And if they get it TSO'ed it will fit a need in the GA
market especially for aircraft with older panels and non-Mode S
transponders that cannot be upgraded to 1090ES data-out, and for
NavWorx I suspect that market is a good target for them. To the extent
it shows some movement in the ADS-B market that is good, and worth
pointing out on r.a.s to glider pilots, but as a product we would
actually use it is just not a good fit. And I'm not just picking on
the NavWorx, I've also pointed out the Trig 1090ES receiver product,
also an interesting product for the GA market, but has some of the
same issues as I've pointed out above for us.

Darryl
Please explain exactly why the Navworx product is not suitable for
gliders? This unit is similar in size and design to the prototypes
that MITRE is testing in conjunction with the SSA, AOPA, and the FAA.
Is the MITRE unit also unsuitable in your opinion?
For me, that 0.8 amps seems like a lot. My current setup, with radio,
transponder, vario, gps, mrx, PDA takes 0.8 amps, so this would double
it to 1.6 amps. Fly 8 hours, that's 12.8 amp hours. Not so bad for me
since I have an 18 ah battery, but I'd need to charge it every day, and
be careful in cold weather I don't run out. How many glider pilots are
prepared for that kind of drain? Look at all the whining over just 0.4
amps for a transponder.

The other thing is the $2500, while people keep talking about $1000 for
the Mitre unit being about right. I think that extra $1500 is going to
stop a lot of pilots from considering it, or they'll say "shoot, I'll
just put in a Trig for $2000, and I don't need to double my battery
size; the airliners will see me and so will the big-bucks pilots that
put the Navworx in their ship".

There's no question that a lower price point would help. Hopefully we
will see prices come down as there is more competition.

As far as power consumption goes, has anyone looked at using solar cells
to augment battery power?

--
Mike Schumann

For several more thousand dollars more you can install a 30 W Strobl
solar panel on your glider and given typical efficiency this will help
with some installations. (I have the largest panels Strobl make
installed one my motorglider). But you can't rely on the solar always
working. You will still need a large battery (likely at least 12Ah and
likely more for folks with long flights and other equipment). Now we
are somewhere around $5k for the UAT installation and we still don't
have a traffic display usable in a glider cockpit. (c'mon it's so
awful somebody just tell me this power spec is just plain wrong).

But don't surrender now. Your defense of this UAT box is entertaining.

Darryl

I am baffled by your negativism. The Navworx unit may not be perfect.
What is significant is not necessarily this box, but the fact that this
unit has been FCC approved, which will hopefully permit other,
competitive units to also be commercialized.

Now that these types of units are starting to come to the market, there
will be a reason for See-You Mobile and other glide computers to provide
the necessary interfaces. This is just a question of time and user demand.

--
Mike Schumann

I agree the NavWorx is a good indicator of things to come. There's
another product that's out as an ADSB IN only UAT reciever that's
small and ties into an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch. The receiver is
$1,200. The software is free for 30 days and $39/year. True, it's not
a soaring package, but it looks like a good aviation package. Here's a
link: http://www.skyscope.net/skyscope-rec...-overview.html.
I don't know anything about it except what I've read.

One way to interface the UAT In information to the current soaring
devices may be to write a device driver to translate the ADSB data
stream to the Flarm data stream. I've written several device drivers
for PC's nd several Windows CE/Mobile programs. However, I've never
written drivers for Windows Mobile. Maybe it's not as easy as I think.

Charlie

On Jul 24, 6:47*am, cfinn wrote:
I agree the NavWorx is a good indicator of things to come. There's
another product that's out as an ADSB IN only UAT reciever that's
small and ties into an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch. The receiver is
$1,200. The software is free for 30 days and $39/year. True, it's not
a soaring package, but it looks like a good aviation package. Here's a
link:http://www.skyscope.net/skyscope-rec...-overview.html.
I don't know anything about it except what I've read.

One way to interface the UAT In information to the current soaring
devices may be to write a device driver to translate the ADSB data
stream to the Flarm data stream. I've written several device drivers
for PC's nd several Windows CE/Mobile programs. However, I've never
written drivers for Windows Mobile. Maybe it's not as easy as I think.

Charlie

The SkyRadar receiver requires an ADS-B transmitter for its UAT
receiver to work properly for traffic (e.g. to receive TIS-B and ADS-
R). It is one of the venodors which started emphasizing more the
weather reception capability over FIS-B (which does not require you
have a ADS-B transmitter). The SkyRadar is one of the more interesting
of several UAT receivers for GA applications. I like the iPAD
integration for FIS-B for example. I'm aware of an author for a GA
aviation magazine evaluating the SkyRadar and I'm interested in how he
will find the unit and hope he does a write up on it.

To do some actual comparisons for use in gliders...

This SkyRadar receiver lists at $1,200 but has a current promotion
running that reduces that $120. It specs at drawing about 0.4 A. You
need to add an iPhone/iPod Touch or iPad or a Mountain Scope display
today. As there is no current stand-along UAT transmitter the likely
path to having this in a usable traffic display systems would be
something like a Trig TT-21 with 1090ES data-out. I expect many glider
pilots would prefer the more expensive but more glider-oriented
PowerFLARM at ($1,495 into price in the USA and $1,695 list).

So for comparison with what the SkyRadar does not offer: PowerFLARM
has a buit-in display, offers serial FLARM protocol support for
display on PDAs etc., glider tuned collision warnings, FLARM-to-FLARM
radio protocol, built-in audible traffic warnins, PCAS transponder
detection, IGC logger up through diamond badge, the option to power
off internal batteries. However the PowerFLARM will not receive FIS-B,
and won't have TIS-B support until a software update. So that all is
not intended to bash the SkyRadar but to show a comparison to products
for use in the glider cockpit.

The comment of doing a protocol translating device driver could be
capable of addressing some of this display compatibility issue. But in
some cases there still needs to be a NMEA stream to drive the PDA
soaring software or flight computer etc.

The commonly used Garmin TIS serial port display protocol does not
know anything about GPS data since the old Mode S TIS at its core just
transmits relative positions from your aircraft to the threat
aircraft. Many devices use the Garmin TIS protocol or a variant for
traffic data, but some may be quite different.

There may be an issue of running out of serial ports in some PDA/PNA
installations if you require separate serial ports for traffic data
and NMEA. You could build an outboard hardware box that combines the
functions of serial port merging and protocol translation (and I am
aware of one person who may well be playing with building their own
such box for a similar application). The other issue is the way FLARM
works is the the Flarm or PowerFLARM box does the threat assesment and
uses glider-optimized algorithms to detect possible collisions and
issue warnings. That's likely critically important in avoding a large
number of false positive warnings in gaggles and other situations. So
just to point out there is likely more work required to do this well
than just adding a traffic display.

Darryl