O&R clarification with remote start

Chris, don't quote me on this but I think what you'd have to do is:

Launch from Home Airport.
Fly 10km south to the Start point.
Fly 250km north to Turnpoint 1.
Fly 250km south to the Finish.
Fly 10km home to land.

--Noel


On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:
I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

The SSA's Badge and Record guide might be a good place to start:
http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf

It appears to me that the finish point needs to be the same as the
start point for an Out and Return Badge or Record flight.

According to section 3 of the FAI sporting code, an "Out and Return"
task is a "CLOSED COURSE" with two legs.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/sc3.pdf

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..



On Jul 29, 2:40*pm, Tony wrote:
The SSA's Badge and Record guide might be a good place to start:http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf

It appears to me that the finish point needs to be the same as the
start point for an Out and Return Badge or Record flight.

On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:
What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

On Jul 29, 2:55*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

What's wrong with flying the route as Noel suggested?

Plug the GPS coordinates into the World Distance Calculator (available
on FAI and SSA websites) to check the distance. That is how you will
determine the distance post flight so I would follow its guidance
instead of SeeYou.

On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl

On Jul 29, 4:04*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:



On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris

Doing the south 125K to the 1st turn point, north 250K to the second
turn point, and south 125K to the start point, would count as a 500K
task. Just not a 500K O&R.

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. *But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 29, 5:46*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 4:04*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:

On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. *But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris

The distance for a triangle with a "remote" start only includes the
distance between the three triangle turnpoints. It's a tool that lets
you "jump" into a triangle of certain geometry/position from another
point. In the sense that any extra distance from the remote start/
finish does not count it is analogous to flying to a "remote" start/
finish for an O&R.

If all you want to do is do a diamond goal flight you can do a
triangle -- which meets the closed coarse goal requirement. Just
declare the start/finish point and two waypoints. You then have a
(squished) 2 turnpoint triangle. For badges there is no need to meet
FAI triangle geometry. Which takes us back to where you originally
asked about but I was not clear you were talking about a badge. For
records you need to meet FAI triangle geometry requirements. This is a
common misunderstanding.

A 500km "flat" diamond like this will get you the goal and distance in
one flight.

So are you happy now? But.... go put on a pot of coffee (or two or
three) and spend some time really studying the sporting code more,
because if you've missed this stuff so far there are likely other
things that are going to bite you. And find a good OO who knows this
stuff backwards.

Darryl

Unless I misunderstood Cindy Brickner in her email to me, what you
described Noel would qualify for both the Diamond 300K O&R goal and
500K task. What Chris described would not qualify for an O&R. His plan
would have two turn points. It could qualify for a 500K Diamond task,
if the takeoff point was the start point.

Charlie