"Cluster bombs called 'war crime'"

On 1/27/04 3:08 AM, in article
, "Rob van Riel"
wrote:


I don't think either [socialism or communism] has ever been implemented
anywhere.

Communism requires an ideal humanity to work....
Attempting to implement it with less than ideal humans gives ruthless
individuals way too many opportunities to seize power and corrupt the
whole system.

Socialism and communism would require perfect god-like LEADERS. Perfect
CITIZENS do not need leaders at all.

Since we will only ever have imperfect citizens and leaders, communism is
the worst sort of philosophy. Democracy may not be the ideal form of
government, but it is better than any other mankind has devised.

"Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word:
equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks
equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint
and servitude."- Alexis de Tocqueville

"Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election
by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."
- George Bernard Shaw

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything."
- Josef Stalin


The refinement of democracy that is our Republic gives to us imperfect
humans our very best chance at freedom. Socialism and communism never really
speak in terms of freedom, but only in terms of equality. Enforced equality
is slavery and you may have all of that you like.



-------
Jack
-------

Jack wrote in message ...
On 1/27/04 3:08 AM, in article
, "Rob van Riel"
wrote:

Communism requires an ideal humanity to work....
Attempting to implement it with less than ideal humans gives ruthless
individuals way too many opportunities to seize power and corrupt the
whole system.

Socialism and communism would require perfect god-like LEADERS. Perfect
CITIZENS do not need leaders at all.

Depends on your definition of perfection. If you mean this to include
omniscience, you are right. Otherwise, perfect citizens still require
leadership.


Since we will only ever have imperfect citizens and leaders, communism is
the worst sort of philosophy. Democracy may not be the ideal form of
government, but it is better than any other mankind has devised.

You say this as though democracy and communism are incompatible. I
don't think communism places any restrictions on how leadership is
selected.


"Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word:
equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks
equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint
and servitude."- Alexis de Tocqueville

With all due respect, this person has no idea what he's talking about.
There are many forms of democracy, and the majority offer not a trace
of equality, and although socialism, like just about any philosophy,
requires some restraint by the populace, it has nothing to do with
servitude, in fact, both it and communism practically demand that it
be abolished. Also, democracy is a means by which leadership is
selected, and has nothing to do with the policies said leadership
implements, which is the domain in which socialism (and many others)
fall.


"Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election
by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."
- George Bernard Shaw

Quite right, thus the law can indeed be bought and sold, and often it
is. I hope you don't consider this a good thing.


"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything."
- Josef Stalin

A lesson well learned and applied, it seems, by the current US
administration.


The refinement of democracy that is our Republic gives to us imperfect
humans our very best chance at freedom.

Actually, US society seems to give the ruthless and strong a carte
blanche to trample those weaker or more decent. Might makes right only
gives you the right to opress or be opressed.
Unrestricted freedom, which you appear to desire, has a different
name: anarchy.


Socialism and communism never really
speak in terms of freedom, but only in terms of equality.

An equal measure of freedom for all doesn't seem so bad to me. Some
restraints are necessary in any society, and I'd rather see the same
restrictions applied to everyone.


Enforced equality is slavery and you may have all of that you like.

Utter nonsense. In a slavery situation there are masters and slaves.
Since these are by definition unequal, equality, whether enforced or
not, precludes slavery.

Rob