Racing airspace "violation" question

"Andy" wrote in message
:

On Sep 7, 10:22*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
A question for you racing rules makers out the

Does the closed airspace rule (loss of all points plus 100 pt penalty)
apply if, following a task abort on course (with enough distance on
task to score for the day), a pilot then overflies class C airspace
(legally, and in contact with approach, etc), enroute to a safe
recovery back at the home base?


I really don't understand why US has to have a different set of
contest rules from the rest of the world. The FAI rules seem far more
sensible when it comes to handling airspace.

Andy

OTOH, I don't know why the FAI has to use a different set of contest
rules from the US... But that's just me I guess...

Larry
"01" USA

On Sep 7, 11:28*am, "Larry Goddard" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

:

On Sep 7, 10:22*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
A question for you racing rules makers out the

Does the closed airspace rule (loss of all points plus 100 pt penalty)
apply if, following a task abort on course (with enough distance on
task to score for the day), a pilot then overflies class C airspace
(legally, and in contact with approach, etc), enroute to a safe
recovery back at the home base?

I really don't understand why US has to have a different set of
contest rules from the rest of the world. The FAI rules seem far more
sensible when it comes to handling airspace.

Andy

OTOH, I don't know why the FAI has to use a different set of contest
rules from the US... *But that's just me I guess...

Larry
"01" USA

The CD and scorer's interpretation of the rules was that if a
contestant had taken a legal start and flown on course, the whole
flight must be conducted under contest rules, even after you have
abandoned the task.

I agree with Kirk, flying legally above closed airspace should not be
penalized after the task is abandoned.

Mike

On Sep 7, 2:58*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Sep 7, 11:28*am, "Larry Goddard" wrote:



"Andy" wrote in message

:

On Sep 7, 10:22*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
A question for you racing rules makers out the

Does the closed airspace rule (loss of all points plus 100 pt penalty)
apply if, following a task abort on course (with enough distance on
task to score for the day), a pilot then overflies class C airspace
(legally, and in contact with approach, etc), enroute to a safe
recovery back at the home base?

I really don't understand why US has to have a different set of
contest rules from the rest of the world. The FAI rules seem far more
sensible when it comes to handling airspace.

Andy

OTOH, I don't know why the FAI has to use a different set of contest
rules from the US... *But that's just me I guess...

Larry
"01" USA

The CD and scorer's interpretation of the rules was that if a
contestant had taken a legal start and flown on course, the whole
flight must be conducted under contest rules, even after you have
abandoned the task.

I agree with Kirk, flying legally above closed airspace should not be
penalized after the task is abandoned.

Mike

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

The SSA rationale is simple - great emphasis is placed on avoiding any
(even inadvertent) B, C, P, R violations within the context of a
sanctioned SSA contest. Although this was implemented before I was
elected to the Rules Committee, I understand that the thinking was to
avoid drawing FAA actions as a result of SSA sanctioned activities.
Others before me can provide additional background.

Another consideration here is that scorers already have enough work to
do without arbitrating "was the task clearly abandoned and when."

On Sep 7, 5:50*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. *You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

No doubt that this is what SSA rules require but the rules really need
a review and I'd suggest bringing the airspace violation rules in line
with FAI.

In this case the FAI rules would have scored 66 (the OP) to the point
of furthest progress and there would have been no penalty.

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, and
then turned in his log.

I hope 66 was not depending on the prize money to buy groceries this
week.

Andy (the scorer in this instance)

On Sep 7, 10:29*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 7, 5:50*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. *You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

No doubt that this is what SSA rules require but the rules really need
a review and I'd suggest bringing the airspace violation rules in line
with FAI.

In this case the FAI rules would have scored 66 (the OP) to the point
of furthest progress and there would have been no penalty.

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, *and
then turned in his log.

I hope 66 was not depending on the prize money to buy groceries this
week.

Andy (the scorer in this instance)

Even more stupidly, if a contestant turns in a log with an inadvertent
airspace violation, and elects to withdraw his flight log for the day,
he/she STILL gets a zero for the day plus a 100 pt penalty the next
day. How bizarre is that?! The rule that says a contestant must be
offered the opportunity to withdraw his/her flight log was intended to
avoid having a record of an airspace violation hanging around where
someone from our friendly government might see it (can you say
"airline pilot career-ending"?). However, with the present rule
interpretation, a zero on day X combined with a 100pt penalty on day X
+1 is no less incriminating than the original flight log, especially
when the score becomes 'official'.

Ya gotta love the guys who think these things up - going one way and
then the other on the same issue. We now have the best scoring system
in the world. It is so good that you have to consult with two
lawyers, three accountants, and a convicted felon (only the felon
really understands the system) before turning in the day's flight log

TA

On Sep 7, 11:02*pm, Frank wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:29*pm, Andy wrote:



On Sep 7, 5:50*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. *You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

No doubt that this is what SSA rules require but the rules really need
a review and I'd suggest bringing the airspace violation rules in line
with FAI.

In this case the FAI rules would have scored 66 (the OP) to the point
of furthest progress and there would have been no penalty.

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, *and
then turned in his log.

I hope 66 was not depending on the prize money to buy groceries this
week.

Andy (the scorer in this instance)

Even more stupidly, if a contestant turns in a log with an inadvertent
airspace violation, and elects to withdraw his flight log for the day,
he/she STILL gets a zero for the day plus a 100 pt penalty the next
day. *How bizarre is that?! *The rule that says a contestant must be
offered the opportunity to withdraw his/her flight log was intended to
avoid having a record of an airspace violation hanging around where
someone from our friendly government might see it (can you say
"airline pilot career-ending"?). *However, with the present rule
interpretation, a zero on day X combined with a 100pt penalty on day X
+1 is no less incriminating than the original flight log, especially
when the score becomes 'official'.

Ya gotta love the guys who think these things up - going one way and
then the other on the same issue. *We now have the best scoring system
in the world. *It is so good that you have to consult with two
lawyers, three accountants, and a convicted felon (only the felon
really understands the system) before turning in the day's flight log

TA

Frank,

That is exactly the intent. It allows a log to be withdrawn to avoid
documenting the infraction, but intentionally you get no relief on the
penalty in that case. The option to withdraw the log is a courtesy to
the affected pilot.

Why make the rules more complicated? It is a simple, easy to
understand rule (never go there., -100 points for the day if you do).
The "turn in a log" is also simple and requires no arbitration -
always turn one in.

The only reason you need the two lawyers, three accountants and the
felon (me? have you been in the post office recently?) it to try and
find some wiggle room around a simple, clearly stated (and explained
in the rules appendix) rule.

On Sep 7, 11:02*pm, Frank wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:29*pm, Andy wrote:





On Sep 7, 5:50*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. *You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

No doubt that this is what SSA rules require but the rules really need
a review and I'd suggest bringing the airspace violation rules in line
with FAI.

In this case the FAI rules would have scored 66 (the OP) to the point
of furthest progress and there would have been no penalty.

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, *and
then turned in his log.

I hope 66 was not depending on the prize money to buy groceries this
week.

Andy (the scorer in this instance)

Even more stupidly, if a contestant turns in a log with an inadvertent
airspace violation, and elects to withdraw his flight log for the day,
he/she STILL gets a zero for the day plus a 100 pt penalty the next
day. *How bizarre is that?! *The rule that says a contestant must be
offered the opportunity to withdraw his/her flight log was intended to
avoid having a record of an airspace violation hanging around where
someone from our friendly government might see it (can you say
"airline pilot career-ending"?). *However, with the present rule
interpretation, a zero on day X combined with a 100pt penalty on day X
+1 is no less incriminating than the original flight log, especially
when the score becomes 'official'.

Ya gotta love the guys who think these things up - going one way and
then the other on the same issue. *We now have the best scoring system
in the world. *It is so good that you have to consult with two
lawyers, three accountants, and a convicted felon (only the felon
really understands the system) before turning in the day's flight log

TA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is not complicated.
Stay out of forbidden airspace- don't get penalty.
The contest board, and by extension the rules committee, has a clear
directive from the SSA board to have a zero tolerance policy with
respect top airspace violations. The rules reflect this directive.
If you can make a case for being lenient on violations, please try to
do so.
The decision not to permit overflight is based primarily on 2
considerations:
1) Transponders are required for overflight of some of these pieces of
airspace. To not be at a competitive disadvantage, pilots would have
to add another expensive piece of equipment(understood that some folks
would think this is a good idea) which can have an adverse affect on
participation. Don't make the mistake of making the case that they are
not required. The order of precidence in the FAR's, which was
carefully parsed, will show otherwise.
2)) There is no assurance that the pilot can positively stay out of
the airspace as he may descend into it. 40 guys all asking for OK to
fly through Class C would result in a huge mess.
"Simple" solution- stay out.
As to withdrawal of log- or non submission. Your violation is between
you and the FAA and the contest operation etc. intends to stay out of
that.
The policies here are, in part, the result of one of the most
difficult exchanges between the contest committee and the BOD and will
not be subject to change.
FWIW
UH
SSA Competition Rules Subcomittee Chair

On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 11:02*pm, Frank wrote:





On Sep 7, 10:29*pm, Andy wrote:

On Sep 7, 5:50*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:

For any flight for which you must turn in a log (i.e. any launch taken
from the contest site after grid time and before the day is canceled)
you may not enter closed airspace. *You can violate closed airspace
and incur the penalty whether you start or not and whether the day is
canceled or not.

No doubt that this is what SSA rules require but the rules really need
a review and I'd suggest bringing the airspace violation rules in line
with FAI.

In this case the FAI rules would have scored 66 (the OP) to the point
of furthest progress and there would have been no penalty.

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, *and
then turned in his log.

I hope 66 was not depending on the prize money to buy groceries this
week.

Andy (the scorer in this instance)

Even more stupidly, if a contestant turns in a log with an inadvertent
airspace violation, and elects to withdraw his flight log for the day,
he/she STILL gets a zero for the day plus a 100 pt penalty the next
day. *How bizarre is that?! *The rule that says a contestant must be
offered the opportunity to withdraw his/her flight log was intended to
avoid having a record of an airspace violation hanging around where
someone from our friendly government might see it (can you say
"airline pilot career-ending"?). *However, with the present rule
interpretation, a zero on day X combined with a 100pt penalty on day X
+1 is no less incriminating than the original flight log, especially
when the score becomes 'official'.

Ya gotta love the guys who think these things up - going one way and
then the other on the same issue. *We now have the best scoring system
in the world. *It is so good that you have to consult with two
lawyers, three accountants, and a convicted felon (only the felon
really understands the system) before turning in the day's flight log

TA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is not complicated.
Stay out of forbidden airspace- don't get penalty.
The contest board, and by extension the rules committee, has a clear
directive from the SSA board to have a zero tolerance policy with
respect top airspace violations. The rules reflect this directive.
If you can make a case for being lenient on violations, please try to
do so.
The decision not to permit overflight is based primarily on 2
considerations:
1) Transponders are required for overflight of some of these pieces of
airspace. To not be at a competitive disadvantage, pilots would have
to add another expensive piece of equipment(understood that some folks
would think this is a good idea) which can have an adverse affect on
participation. Don't make the mistake of making the case that they are
not required. The order of precidence in the FAR's, which was
carefully parsed, will show otherwise.
2)) There is no assurance that the pilot can positively stay out of
the airspace as he may descend into it. 40 guys all asking for OK to
fly through Class C would result in a huge mess.
"Simple" solution- stay out.
As to withdrawal of log- or non submission. Your violation is between
you and the FAA and the contest operation etc. intends to stay out of
that.
The policies here are, in part, the result of one of the most
difficult exchanges between the contest committee and the BOD and will
not be subject to change.
FWIW
UH
SSA Competition Rules Subcomittee Chair

Ahh, OK, I'll just deal with it, for the better of the SSA, it's
image, and the sport in general.

And no, I didn't protest the penalty, I'm the one who made the
decision to go home via the safest route as the day was ending. Could
I have gone around the Class C instead of over it? Maybe, but it
would have been close.

Anyway, I learned more about the sport, had a fun flight with good
friends, and made it home safely for a cold one; what more can one ask
for?

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Sep 7, 7:29*pm, Andy wrote:

The stupidity of the situation is that 66 would be 100 points better
off if he had a logger failure than if he announced his intention to
abandon the task, made a completely legal class C overflight, *and
then turned in his log.

I have to correct that - the score would have been the same since
failure to turn in a log would get zero for the day and the additional
100 point penalty.

Andy

As long as we're discussing a rules change and not a score change for
the day. Many other contestants aborted at the first turn point
rather than the second turn point because of the Class C airspace
conflict with getting home.

Randy