Future Club Training Gliders

Grider Pirate wrote:
I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old.
When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons
were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.

George Moffat in "Winning on the Wind":

As a boy, I discovered a copy of Terence Horselay's "Soaring Flight" in
the local library. I must have pretty much worn out their copy, mooning
over pictures of the then fabulous Minimoa, reading accounts by the
great Philip Wills, becoming utterly entranced with the idea of silent
flight.

....

[First training flights in the USA]
After only a few flights in the stodgy two-place trainer, I became
bored. The handling was poor, the performance terrible. There seemed no
connection to the early dream.

....

That summer, while living in Paris [his first solo in an Emouchet, the
French version of the Grunau Baby] ...

Once aloft, the air rushing over my face, the wings seeming extensions
of my arms from the narrow cockpit, I knew that this was the experience
I had dreamed about. ...

That day, late in the evening, Camille Labar, member of the French
National Team, skimmed over the field in the Breguet after completing a
440 km triangle. There were, it seemed, a few things to be learned.



Bottom line: The training glider does matter. And it also does matter
that there are some cross country pilots around.

On Sep 14, 10:30*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
[....]
Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.

Same here.

Now, all things being equal, I do prefer to fly a better glider. The
problem is, things are rarely equal. In my (admittedly limited)
experience, a club with a glass fleet will:
- be expensive to join, or
- be expensive to stay in, or,
- limit flying time (many members, few gliders), or
- all of the above.

Given a choice between getting a glass ship for an hour or 1-26 for
half a day, I'll take 1-26.

B.

On Sep 14, 10:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote:

On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

John Cochrane

Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer
ever built....

Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s.
Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it
ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a
contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people
to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,)

Kirk

Exactly!

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

It also has a HUGE airworthiness issue in that the flight controls in
the front cockpit cannot be moved full range without interfering with
each other. Try holding the spoiler at 50% and moving the stick
through its full range box. Its a mystery how it got an airworthiness
certificate back in 1962. Most pilots with above average thigh
circumference have very little left aileron with 50% spoiler.

The only proper use of a 2-33 is hanging in a museum - as an example
of how NOT to design a glider.

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.


Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

On Sep 15, 10:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

Heck, I trained in Schweizers as well (not too likely to be a team
member though). Post solo I had a chance to fly a K-21, which went
fine since I'd been trained to a high standard. Even with flying
"low performance" planes from the start I stuck with flying;
I did learn to soar well in those things.

I'd love to instruct in a K-21 these days, but cost really is an
issue.
I hardly ever see K-21s on Wings and Wheels; there are a couple
available in Europe for 50-60K Euros. New ones are advertised for
64K Euros, and I would think the delivery price with needed
instruments would wind up higher (I've heard $90K for new).
Typical 2-33s, L-13s, and K-7s go for $10-15K or so.

We've hashed over this argument before. A number of clubs
have managed to afford the more expensive ships for primary
training; I say more power to them. Many of us can only
afford cheaper lower performance planes. We can still train
good pilots in them.

-- Matt

I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students,
Schweizer trained and everyone else. Place these two types in an
ASK-21. Schweizer trained students often lack refined control
coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch
and speed properly. The other students seem to do much better. The
Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern
gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. Being trained in
a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to
fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep
back.

Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a
Schweizer is a good idea. I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates.

KJC

On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

On Sep 15, 8:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

A large fraction of 2-33's already have patches on their wings due to
metal fatigue cracks. I've found cracks on several the AI missed.
Look at the skins on top of the wing ahead of the spar. If there are
skin cracks, there's a good chance of other cracks where they can't be
seen. There will be an AD - probably sooner than later.

As to why there are no SB's - ask Schweizer.

"Tony" wrote in message
...
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
snip

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in most US
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

On Sep 14, 5:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

John Cochrane

Really good news!

Buy ASK-21's, they can't be beat as a trainer. Heck, even 2-33
trained pilots can manage to fly them - after they're retrained.