Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 14, 10:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote:

On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

John Cochrane

Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer
ever built....

Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s.
Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it
ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a
contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people
to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,)

Kirk

Exactly!

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

It also has a HUGE airworthiness issue in that the flight controls in
the front cockpit cannot be moved full range without interfering with
each other. Try holding the spoiler at 50% and moving the stick
through its full range box. Its a mystery how it got an airworthiness
certificate back in 1962. Most pilots with above average thigh
circumference have very little left aileron with 50% spoiler.

The only proper use of a 2-33 is hanging in a museum - as an example
of how NOT to design a glider.

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.


Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

On Sep 15, 9:59*am, Westbender wrote:
You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

exactly. i'm a member of two clubs and i dont think either one could
afford a new ASK, Duo, or DG if they sold all of their assets.

Well I suppose we could start charging $500 or $1000 to join and jack
up the monthly dues and flight fees. And watch most of our membership
disappear...

"Tony" wrote in message
...
On Sep 15, 9:59 am, Westbender wrote:
You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

exactly. i'm a member of two clubs and i dont think either one could
afford a new ASK, Duo, or DG if they sold all of their assets.

Small clubs in the UK usually use a K13, which I am told is a excellent
trainer.

On Sep 15, 8:59*am, Westbender wrote:
You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

Yes, we have thought about it - a lot.

The reason smaller clubs can't afford anything but 2-33's is simply
BECAUSE THEY HAVE 2-33's! Their 'product' is so unappealing, they
can't attract members which is why these clubs are small and poor in
the first place. Dump 2-33's for ASK-21's and watch the sport grow.

I learned from Paul McCready the cheapest way to do anything is to do
it right in the first place. I'm a strong advocate of low cost glider
flying but 2-33's are 180 degrees the wrong way to go. The solution
to cheap flying is to 'do it right' with attractive gliders and a
winch operation.

On Sep 15, 12:57*pm, bildan wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:59*am, Westbender wrote:

You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

Yes, we have thought about it - a lot.



Great! Email me offline and I'll give you the address to send the
check...

On Sep 15, 12:26*pm, Westbender wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:57*pm, bildan wrote:

On Sep 15, 8:59*am, Westbender wrote:

You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how
many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If
you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd
be happy to accomodate your idea.

Yes, we have thought about it - a lot.

Great! Email me offline and I'll give you the address to send the
check...

An SSA Clubs & Chapters Committee 'best practice' is for clubs to
pursue a 501c(3) determination, making charitable donations possible.
At least 20 SSA chapters, including some of the largest, have such a
determination.

Forward planning saves a lot. See this Strategic Planning pdf
http://www.soaringchapters.org/conve...r_Clubs_V5.pdf

and this presentation on bringing your club into the 21st Century and
delivering on the promise of soaring. poor video, good audio and
content
http://www.soaringchapters.org/semin..._century21.wmv

Frank Whiteley

On Sep 15, 10:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

Heck, I trained in Schweizers as well (not too likely to be a team
member though). Post solo I had a chance to fly a K-21, which went
fine since I'd been trained to a high standard. Even with flying
"low performance" planes from the start I stuck with flying;
I did learn to soar well in those things.

I'd love to instruct in a K-21 these days, but cost really is an
issue.
I hardly ever see K-21s on Wings and Wheels; there are a couple
available in Europe for 50-60K Euros. New ones are advertised for
64K Euros, and I would think the delivery price with needed
instruments would wind up higher (I've heard $90K for new).
Typical 2-33s, L-13s, and K-7s go for $10-15K or so.

We've hashed over this argument before. A number of clubs
have managed to afford the more expensive ships for primary
training; I say more power to them. Many of us can only
afford cheaper lower performance planes. We can still train
good pilots in them.

-- Matt

I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students,
Schweizer trained and everyone else. Place these two types in an
ASK-21. Schweizer trained students often lack refined control
coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch
and speed properly. The other students seem to do much better. The
Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern
gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. Being trained in
a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to
fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep
back.

Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a
Schweizer is a good idea. I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates.

KJC

On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.