Future Club Training Gliders

"Tony" wrote in message
...
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
snip

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in most US
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in most US
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly. Those of you who talk about being "happy
just to be in the air" have to realize what a tiny minority you are -
and that your numbers are dwindling. People these days are often
flying hundreds of miles per hour in jetliners before they're 10.
They're mixing it up in 60 - 80mph traffic by the time they're 15 or
16 (and even their economy cars have power windows, power door locks,
keyless remote, and a dock for their Phone/MP3-player). They're
playing with Google Maps and Google Earth - seeing the world from that
vantage point is not new to them. Being in the air is not new to
them. They don't know what they're missing; but they *are* going to
have a whole lot of preconceived notions about it, and their
experiences are going to bias them towards wanting something that's
fast, sleek, exciting, modern, high-tech, etc. NONE of those things
apply to the 2-33. If you want to turn a young person OFF, show then
a 2-33! They'll either stick to Flight Simulators or they'll walk
over to fly powered airplanes - you know, "the exciting and fast kind
of flying". Oh, and how many young (under 40), energetic instructors
are there in the USA? Right. So from the perspective of a young
person (under 35, let's say), their introduction to soaring is a 50 or
60 year old guy standing next to a glider that's of equal age. Yeah,
really enticing! :-P Good luck with that, folks. At least an L-13 or
L-23 looks sleeker (by comparison) and flies a whole lot better.

2) One more thing: the 2-33 is a favorite because it is cheap, and it
is easy to fix/maintain (especially for FBOs/commercial operators).
Notice that neither of these has ANYTHING to do with flying qualities
or its value in training good pilot skills! I started in an L-13,
made the jump to a 1-36 quite easily, and then had to go drop back to
a 2-33 for my license. The 2-33 was HELL. Sloppy controls, TITANIC
throw required to get a good response, and my big legs (I'm 6'1" and
215 lbs) meant that I had to lift my leg and tuck the stick under the
back of my knee to get full aileron deflection - NOT the safest way to
fly! The 2-33 is nothing like the advanced metal & glass I have flown
since. Its usefulness (if it has any) is restricted to very early
primary training, since you can't use it to develop advanced skills
(such as flying XC or good thermal-centering in anything representing
the same manner you work thermals in a more modern/capable ship).

--Noel

Good points by all.
There is nothing that speaks or even whispers "future" (see the
subject line) about a 2-33, so I think it's only mentioned due to
economy. As Bill suggests, it's an antiquated plan and does not take
into consideration young pilot mentality as Noel explained. We need to
listen to more "junior" pilots, and not just assume they're
inexperienced etc.
Contrasting, but certainly not a primary trainer... The Arcus
screams "FUTURE".
My club trains using aero tow (1x) and winch (2x) launching in a
Puchatek, then solo in the Puchatek. Solo in Junior. Dual in G103,
solo in it. Then possibly solo in Jantar Standard or dual in Twin
Astir. Other ships to move up to are LS-7, LS-6, and Duo XT. All kept
in hangars, with tail tow equipment and instruments like you'd expect.
Not a one without a radio, audio vario or FLARM (there's a FLARM in
the Callair too). Everything but the Junior has a flight computer /
GPS data logger.
Like owning a house, aircraft ownership requires more than routine
maintenance. If you don't make upgrades periodically, your home or
fleet may look OK to you but will look outdated to others.
I have e-mailed Scheibe Aircraft (still producing the Motorfalke) to
see if there is any truth to the rumor that they will reintroduce the
SF-34. I know of only one in the USA, at Moriarty, NM. Believe it used
to be in Greensboro, NC or was that another one? But it will likely
cost as much as an AS-K21.
In Australia, the bulk of glider pilots are referred to as "OFITTH",
meaning "Old Farts In Terry Towel Hats". We all need to stop thinking
like an OFITTH.
Jim

On Sep 15, 1:18*pm, JS wrote:
Good points by all.
* There is nothing that speaks or even whispers "future" (see the
subject line) about a 2-33, so I think it's only mentioned due to
economy. As Bill suggests, it's an antiquated plan and does not take
into consideration young pilot mentality as Noel explained. We need to
listen to more "junior" pilots, and not just assume they're
inexperienced etc.
* Contrasting, but certainly not a primary trainer... The Arcus
screams "FUTURE".
* My club trains using aero tow (1x) and winch (2x) launching in a
Puchatek, then solo in the Puchatek. Solo in Junior. Dual in G103,
solo in it. Then possibly solo in Jantar Standard or dual in Twin
Astir. Other ships to move up to are LS-7, LS-6, and Duo XT. All kept
in hangars, with tail tow equipment and instruments like you'd expect.
Not a one without a radio, audio vario or FLARM (there's a FLARM in
the Callair too). Everything but the Junior has a flight computer /
GPS data logger.
* Like owning a house, aircraft ownership requires more than routine
maintenance. If you don't make upgrades periodically, your home or
fleet may look OK to you but will look outdated to others.
* I have e-mailed Scheibe Aircraft (still producing the Motorfalke) to
see if there is any truth to the rumor that they will reintroduce the
SF-34. I know of only one in the USA, at Moriarty, NM. Believe it used
to be in Greensboro, NC or was that another one? But it will likely
cost as much as an AS-K21.
* In Australia, the bulk of glider pilots are referred to as "OFITTH",
meaning "Old Farts In Terry Towel Hats". We all need to stop thinking
like an OFITTH.
Jim

How do you like the Puchatek? OBTW, that's the Krosno KR-03a AKA
Peregrine I mentioned previously.

Frank

Frank, the Puchatek AKA "Puke Attack" is a decent trainer. Pretty
rugged, roomy, good visibility and comfort. Looks/feels a bit
utilitarian. You can instruct speed to fly, spins and low energy
touchdown. It winches nicely. There's even an instrument panel in the
back seat and a usable baggage compartment. The wheel brake is a
separate pull handle.
They've had a few ADs, think the latest was airbrake actuators. The
lack of a continued airworthiness (was it actually 5000 hours?)
inspection program will be the end of them.
Barry Aviation (Peregrine) haven't updated their website in many
years.
Jim

On Sep 15, 1:32*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

How do you like the Puchatek? *OBTW, that's the Krosno KR-03a AKA
Peregrine I mentioned previously.

Frank

On Sep 15, 1:50*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:



But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in most US
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly. *Those of you who talk about being "happy
just to be in the air" have to realize what a tiny minority you are -
and that your numbers are dwindling. *People these days are often
flying hundreds of miles per hour in jetliners before they're 10.
They're mixing it up in 60 - 80mph traffic by the time they're 15 or
16 (and even their economy cars have power windows, power door locks,
keyless remote, and a dock for their Phone/MP3-player). *They're
playing with Google Maps and Google Earth - seeing the world from that
vantage point is not new to them. *Being in the air is not new to
them. *They don't know what they're missing; but they *are* going to
have a whole lot of preconceived notions about it, and their
experiences are going to bias them towards wanting something that's
fast, sleek, exciting, modern, high-tech, etc. *NONE of those things
apply to the 2-33. *If you want to turn a young person OFF, show then
a 2-33! *They'll either stick to Flight Simulators or they'll walk
over to fly powered airplanes - you know, "the exciting and fast kind
of flying". *Oh, and how many young (under 40), energetic instructors
are there in the USA? *Right. *So from the perspective of a young
person (under 35, let's say), their introduction to soaring is a 50 or
60 year old guy standing next to a glider that's of equal age. *Yeah,
really enticing! :-P *Good luck with that, folks. *At least an L-13 or
L-23 looks sleeker (by comparison) and flies a whole lot better.

2) One more thing: the 2-33 is a favorite because it is cheap, and it
is easy to fix/maintain (especially for FBOs/commercial operators).
Notice that neither of these has ANYTHING to do with flying qualities
or its value in training good pilot skills! *I started in an L-13,
made the jump to a 1-36 quite easily, and then had to go drop back to
a 2-33 for my license. *The 2-33 was HELL. *Sloppy controls, TITANIC
throw required to get a good response, and my big legs (I'm 6'1" and
215 lbs) meant that I had to lift my leg and tuck the stick under the
back of my knee to get full aileron deflection - NOT the safest way to
fly! *The 2-33 is nothing like the advanced metal & glass I have flown
since. *Its usefulness (if it has any) is restricted to very early
primary training, since you can't use it to develop advanced skills
(such as flying XC or good thermal-centering in anything representing
the same manner you work thermals in a more modern/capable ship).

--Noel

My club has 25 junior members that must be blind according to your
criteria. They didn't know they weren't supposed to have fun and enjoy
learning to fly in th 2-33.
Our 2-33's fly all day every day it's flyable. We had to get a 3rd due
to demand.
Our '21 flies much less than that.
And our '21, which we got at a favorable price, cost twice what we
have in our 3 2-33's.
Cost does matter in smaller club to the point of being critical to
survival.
Clubs depending on Blaniks are really challanged now. Who knows for
how long. Do we think they all will go buy '21's. I doubt it. They
already wanted 21's and couldn't afford them.
UH

On Sep 15, 4:40*pm, wrote:

My club has 25 junior members that must be blind according to your
criteria. They didn't know they weren't supposed to have fun and enjoy
learning to fly in th 2-33.

UH -

1) Note that I didn't participate in any comments about the '21 or the
other expensive glass ships in this thread.

2) I'm guessing your club has other things that are making it
attractive to younger members! Either you have great instruction, or
a clear stepping-stone approach to flying better ships in the future,
or super-cheap rates, or they were recruited by existing club members
or some club outreach program that excited them, or something along
those lines. They did not drop in to the club from nowhere, see the
2-33, and decide it was a good idea.

I'd love to know how your club is attracting so many students; and I'd
also love to know how many of them go on to complete their license and
continue to fly with the club.

--Noel

On Sep 15, 6:49*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 4:40*pm, wrote:

My club has 25 junior members that must be blind according to your
criteria. They didn't know they weren't supposed to have fun and enjoy
learning to fly in th 2-33.

UH -

1) Note that I didn't participate in any comments about the '21 or the
other expensive glass ships in this thread.

2) I'm guessing your club has other things that are making it
attractive to younger members! *Either you have great instruction, or
a clear stepping-stone approach to flying better ships in the future,
or super-cheap rates, or they were recruited by existing club members
or some club outreach program that excited them, or something along
those lines. *They did not drop in to the club from nowhere, see the
2-33, and decide it was a good idea.

I'd love to know how your club is attracting so many students; and I'd
also love to know how many of them go on to complete their license and
continue to fly with the club.

--Noel

Is it really that hard to believe the 2-33 didn't scare everyone away?
Come one, why don't we stop this silly nonsense about how the 2-33 is
the reason why soaring isn't growing. For goodness sakes. Then there's
the "have to be retrained" boloney after learning to fly in a 2-33. It
serves the purpose it was designed to do very well. Basic training.

I don't recall a single prospective member of our club that came
calling because they saw a "cool looking ship" at the field, or backed
away after seeing the 2-33. All of our students are always clamoring
for instruction time in our trainers. They could care less about the
glass ships that are rigging/derigging/departing/arriving when
training flights are operating. They're not stupid. They all know the
2-33 is not the end of the line. It's only the beginning. If you'd
take the time to talk to new students or even prospective ones,
they'll tell you what their expectations and their intentions are. I
garantee you they understand the concept of basic training and
progression.

By the way, our club has a "stepping-stone" approach to better
performing ships, but we can only afford so much. 2 2-33s, 1 2-22, 2
1-26s, 1 1-34, 1 L23. Not all of our ships are on the flightline due
to instructor shortages (that's another discussion). Our students are
always eyeing the single-place ships and a couple of them already
purchased their own ships. Although they're keeping them in the barn
until they're ready to fly them. That's because they're intelligent
people and not lured around by a carrot dangling on a stick.

If we have to resort to "eye-candy" to lure people to soaring, then
it's not necessarily about flying is it? Maybe it's just a niche and
nothing more.

I wonder how many students are more likely to follow through and
become a licensed pilot or even an owner? One attracted by something
shiny? Or one that is driven by the desire to fly?

"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

More seriously, I'm doubtful that anyone (young or old) would even consider
gliders in any way, shape, or form if they were motivated by speed.

If the argument had any validity, it could be turned into a counter
argument that claims 2-33's would winnow out those who have not yet matured
- and lack of maturity leads to poor aeronautical decision making, leading
in turn to death, destruction, and the collapse of civilization - all
because too many young whipper snappers got themselves killed flying like
crazed kids. And all for lack of 2-33's to teach them some humility! :-)

On Nov 5, 1:44*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14 am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

More seriously, I'm doubtful that anyone (young or old) would even consider
gliders in any way, shape, or form if they were motivated by speed.

If the argument had any validity, it could be turned into a counter
argument that claims 2-33's would winnow out those who have not yet matured
- and lack of maturity leads to poor aeronautical decision making, leading
in turn to death, destruction, and the collapse of civilization - all
because too many young whipper snappers got themselves killed flying like
crazed kids. And all for lack of 2-33's to teach them some humility! *:-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was 47 when I took my first glider lesson. All my flying (a lot! I
was a terribly slow learner!) up to my check ride was in a 2-33. After
I got my ticket, I flew the 1-26 a bit, but took several training
flights in the G103. Yes, flying the big Grob is different from flying
the 2-33, but that's why they put an instructor in the back seat for
several flights in the Grob. I think the instructors make more
difference than the glider.