Future Club Training Gliders

On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14Â*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. Â*It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Nov 5, 10:02*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I started learning to glide in 1981 at the age of 35 in K13s. I went
solo on my 40th flight within three months of starting, and got an
instructor rating in 1985. However I felt that K13s with their wooden
skids looked a bit antique even back then. Our club still has two of
the same K13s as we had back then, plus seven newer ones. Most of them
have had nose wheel conversions, which makes them look fractionally
more modern, but not exactly inspiring. Tall people have difficulty in
fitting into the front seat. Unfortunately no manufacturer has yet
come up with a decent glass 2-seater trainer that ticks all the boxes
that a K13 can.

On 11/5/2010 4:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

wrote:

Snip...

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.


OK, I'm convinced. Having as many as possible intro gliders into soaring is
better than having fewer...regardless of WHAT the intro gliders look like!

Bob - options are good - W.

P.S. Now I'm ready to be convinced it makes economic sense within our
non-growing sport to junk perfectly functional sailplanes - i.e. sailplanes
that meet *some* (or they'd've been retired already) real club/commercial
operator needs - in favor of replacements carrying considerably higher
up-front replacement/ongoing insurance costs, just because the former were
designed before 'ergonomics' gained favor!

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet.

Just met a fellow at a garage sale where I was blabbering about
gliders, and this guy tells me his story of how he had seen beautiful
gliders for years here and there in movies (Thomas Crown remake?) and
TV specials and such and was really intrigued by them, so much so that
he looked up a close by operation and went to Vacaville CA sometime
in the 90's (no longer in operation...) to finally treat himself and
possibly take it up. He got to the field and was pretty exited, and
made arrangements with the folks there. Then him and his pilot walked
out the their plane. They were walking past all these gorgeous glass
ships that were fueling his fancy -and kept going past them, to what
by his description of what he remembered could only have been a 2-33.
His heart sank, he lost his inspiration as well as his confidence;
enough so that he didn't go through with the flight and lost the spark
of interest.

The interesting thing about this story to me, was how he told it to me
on his own volition, out of the complete blue. I was only talking
about positive aspects of gliding and my own joys etc with it. It was
so very random for him to tell me that, which for me further
reinforces my thoughts about the influence visual dynamics has on
mental dynamics... I've seen other people be this guy, and frankly I
felt the same way when we walked past the 21 and the 103, to a lonely
2-33 on it's own pad, which made it clear what plane we were going to
be using for flight training -and which ones we were not. Yeah I
stuck with it, but it I would be lying if I said I wasn't crestfallen
when I went for the same walk...

-Paul

Funnily enough, my first trial flight was at Cambridge Club: I was
launched in a K13 and had a short thermalling flight, but never went
back because I was expecting a sleek fibreglass machine rather than
something that was older than I was (29 at the time).
I ended up joining London gliding club, whos had a fleet of 6 K21's,
and went solo in one of their K23's (a single seat version of a K21)

On Nov 6, 9:02*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to throw a spanner in the works, is everyone suggesting the AS-K21 as
a primary trainer aware that it is as good as impossible to spin whilst the
CofG is within approved limits? A-S make a spin kit, but this means that if
you want to use the K21 as a primary trainer you need to faff around with
installing weights on the tail before every flight where you intend to
spin the glider, then faff around removing them again afterwards.

The solution my club (Lasham in the UK) has is to have diversity in the
training fleet, although we have the luxury of 600 members, 100 private
gliders and 50 students at any one time paying fees to support all
this.

Our fleet:

9(I think) x AS-K13: Wood, Steel Tube + Fabric. Used for ab-initio
training because they are easy and cheap to repair, plus they spin (and
recover) well. K-7 would probably do just as well for this job.

2 x AS-K21: Used for transitioning students onto glass at a later stage of
training. Also good for aerobatic training, which I think is a point which
has been missed so far in this discussion. Will not spin readily (see
above).

2 x DG-1000: Used for XC and aerobatics training, plus private hire to
club members wishing to go on dual XC flights.

1 x Duo Discus: Used for XC training / Private hire

Anyway, I think the point I am trying to make is that maybe there is not
one particular glider which is ideal for everything?

Michael Jaworski wrote:
if you want to use the K21 as a primary trainer you need to faff around with
installing weights on the tail before every flight where you intend to
spin the glider, then faff around removing them again afterwards.

Actually, I love this. It forces the student to contemplate on the
desired CofG, then weigh the pilots, calculate the needed amount of lead
and finally go up and trust in his calculation. (Which, of course, the
instructor has discreetly double-checked.)

Mounting and unmounting the lead is a matter of seconds and a complete
non-issue. Actually, I think aerobatics is the only application in which
the ASK21 beats the DG1000 because the latter is way too slippery.

I honestly think everyone is jumping to conclusions far too early....the AD
on Blanik's will reach a satisfactory conclusion all soon enough .there are
just too many of these world wide in continuous use and for all practical
purposes the AD's on these gliders have been few and far between..they are
still among the best club training gliders available by far..and they are
affordable...for the abuse these gliders have been given throughout their
lives, the "club's" lack of attention, stored outside in the elements and
basically given "office" annual inspections by many clubs and users they
have been rewarding ten's of thousands of hours and pilot
certificates....the alternatives.2-33's and 2-22's though old and a bit
clumsy have also done an admirable job or creating pilot certificates and
will continue to do so.not with a lot of glamour, but still working....K7's
and K-13's have done a good job but old and hard to find, at least at
affordable prices in the USA and the wood takes special care and
storage....and can also and has been a subject of AD's and special service
bulletins..K21's and Grobs have had and will have their share of AD's, many
very expensive to repair, more so than what the AD is likely going to be on
the L-13's...DG1000's and Duo's.not likely going to fit into club budgets
for 2011 HpH will hopefully have the new Twin Shark available to offer...it
too is however going to be out of the budget for most clubs, or, even if
they have one, not likely to fit assembled in the most typical club hangar
either......and if these glass and carbon fiber gliders are left to the
elements and tied outside like an L-13...then you'll find the real cost of
ownership.

Clubs to exist will need lower cost trainers....like Blaniks....those that
can be affordable to rent, lease, own and replace...few clubs will have
$100,000.00 budgets for new glass ships...and if they can't find affordable
gliders these clubs will simply fail to exist....
tim


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Michael Jaworski wrote:
if you want to use the K21 as a primary trainer you need to faff around
with
installing weights on the tail before every flight where you intend to
spin the glider, then faff around removing them again afterwards.

Actually, I love this. It forces the student to contemplate on the desired
CofG, then weigh the pilots, calculate the needed amount of lead and
finally go up and trust in his calculation. (Which, of course, the
instructor has discreetly double-checked.)

Mounting and unmounting the lead is a matter of seconds and a complete
non-issue. Actually, I think aerobatics is the only application in which
the ASK21 beats the DG1000 because the latter is way too slippery.

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On 9/15/2010 3:42 PM, Tim Mara wrote:
I honestly think everyone is jumping to conclusions far too early....the AD
on Blanik's will reach a satisfactory conclusion all soon enough .there are
just too many of these world wide in continuous use and for all practical
purposes the AD's on these gliders have been few and far between..they are
still among the best club training gliders available by far..and they are
affordable...

You have a vested interest in this line of thinking and are just trying
to be optimistic and positive. You are unpacking a shipping container,
with a a "new" used L-13 in it, this morning. G